4 ms·

Freezing bank accounts is an ugly overreach. Going to give sympathy to the protesters

babyshake 5y ago
It is certainly playing with fire.
roenxi 5y ago
It is amazing to watch freezing bank accounts being seriously considered. I note the article throws in a "...perhaps to suggest, absurdly, that Canada’s covid-19 restrictions are akin to Nazism...". A fair comment in my view, but it does raise an interesting question - what is this comparable to? This is something extreme, it must be comparable to some major past event. Attacking truck drivers in this way isn't normal peacetime activity, it looks like a lot of extreme measures are being taken. > "The other proposed change would let individuals file legal complaints against people pre-emptively, if they fear that they may be about to say something hateful." Also, woah. Is that at all true?
- ls15 5y ago
  Covid policies remind me of the Stanford-Prison-Experiment. Divide a population into two subgroups. Introduce strict rules for group B and let group A enforce them. See what happens. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment The nazis used this pattern too, but they also systematically murdered group B, which in my opinion disqualifies direct comparisons.
  - Arnt 5y ago
    Uhm, the key of the experiment was that someone did active division. The vaccine situation isn't like that. People decided on their own whether to get a vaccine. Just like whether they decide on their own how to vote, how to eat, etc. Some of them are militant about whether others should eat meat or inject vaccines, they're not encouraged to be militant by Justin Trudeau or Stanford researchers.
    - ls15 5y ago
      > Uhm, the key of the experiment was that someone did active division. I think that the division of people by vaccination status is active, like a division by religion or language would be active. > they're not encouraged to be militant by Justin Trudeau or Stanford researchers. I am not sure about this. Some argue that demand characteristics lead to the outcome of the experiment: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment#Demand_characteristics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment#Dem... The BBC experiment had a different outcome. Like the Danish "experiment" today (no mandates, no protests, nobody calling for state of emergency).
      - Arnt 5y ago
        Could you elaborate on why this is an active division? It might help if you explain it by comparing/contrasting it with the situation wrt. measles vaccines, which I understand is mandatory in parts of Canada and which hasn't involved noticeable protest.
        ls15 5y ago
        Two doses of measles vaccine are 97% effective and do not need any further boosters, while we don't know if 4 doses of today's SARS-CoV-2 vaccines are effective against next month's variant. As I understand, with measles vaccines an outbreak can be prevented, while SARS-CoV-2 vaccines are not stopping the virus even in fully vaccinated populations. We also need to look at risks. Covid risks are spread unevenly over a population and it does not look to me like the threat is existential for humanity. Especially younger people are looking at worse risk/benefit ratios than older people. Since the SARS-CoV-2 vaccines are not good at preventing transmission, I don't think that a mandate is needed, suitable or adequate. There are no mandates to quit drinking, smoking, potato chips and extreme sports or to do yoga, to eat healthy and to take proper supplements. Introducing such mandates may technically be possible, but it would leave us with a system like the social credit score where we need to prove our smoking, drinking or yoga status in order to be allowed to just be. Being required to prove our vaccination status already introduces a little bit of this and vaccinations could be done without this, by just not mandating them. I think it is fair to protest against this.
  - xiphias2 5y ago
    Taking away money from people generally shortens their life expectancy (rich people live longer), so while it's still very far from taking their life, the direction looks clear.
    - david38 5y ago
      That’s about the worst stretch I’ve ever heard. I guess I should shoot the next guy who tries to give me a parking ticket?
      - xiphias2 5y ago
        No, but I'm not sure that it would be a bad thing to bring back capital punishment (like the guillotine) for huge financial crimes.
      - 1123581321 5y ago
        You should work to reform your local parking enforcement so it can’t overwhelm poor people with tickets and boot their cars.
Ataraxiaist 5y ago
It seems like quite a political miscalculation. It makes me wonder who advises him because it really is the type of move you would hope your political opposition makes when future elections are involved.

It is certainly playing with fire.

It is amazing to watch freezing bank accounts being seriously considered. I note the article throws in a "...perhaps to suggest, absurdly, that Canada’s covid-19 restrictions are akin to Nazism...". A fair comment in my view, but it does raise an interesting question - what is this comparable to? This is something extreme, it must be comparable to some major past event. Attacking truck drivers in this way isn't normal peacetime activity, it looks like a lot of extreme measures are being taken. > "The other proposed change would let individuals file legal complaints against people pre-emptively, if they fear that they may be about to say something hateful." Also, woah. Is that at all true?

ls15 5y ago
Covid policies remind me of the Stanford-Prison-Experiment. Divide a population into two subgroups. Introduce strict rules for group B and let group A enforce them. See what happens. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment The nazis used this pattern too, but they also systematically murdered group B, which in my opinion disqualifies direct comparisons.
- Arnt 5y ago
  Uhm, the key of the experiment was that someone did active division. The vaccine situation isn't like that. People decided on their own whether to get a vaccine. Just like whether they decide on their own how to vote, how to eat, etc. Some of them are militant about whether others should eat meat or inject vaccines, they're not encouraged to be militant by Justin Trudeau or Stanford researchers.
  - ls15 5y ago
    > Uhm, the key of the experiment was that someone did active division. I think that the division of people by vaccination status is active, like a division by religion or language would be active. > they're not encouraged to be militant by Justin Trudeau or Stanford researchers. I am not sure about this. Some argue that demand characteristics lead to the outcome of the experiment: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment#Demand_characteristics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment#Dem... The BBC experiment had a different outcome. Like the Danish "experiment" today (no mandates, no protests, nobody calling for state of emergency).
    - Arnt 5y ago
      Could you elaborate on why this is an active division? It might help if you explain it by comparing/contrasting it with the situation wrt. measles vaccines, which I understand is mandatory in parts of Canada and which hasn't involved noticeable protest.
      - ls15 5y ago
        Two doses of measles vaccine are 97% effective and do not need any further boosters, while we don't know if 4 doses of today's SARS-CoV-2 vaccines are effective against next month's variant. As I understand, with measles vaccines an outbreak can be prevented, while SARS-CoV-2 vaccines are not stopping the virus even in fully vaccinated populations. We also need to look at risks. Covid risks are spread unevenly over a population and it does not look to me like the threat is existential for humanity. Especially younger people are looking at worse risk/benefit ratios than older people. Since the SARS-CoV-2 vaccines are not good at preventing transmission, I don't think that a mandate is needed, suitable or adequate. There are no mandates to quit drinking, smoking, potato chips and extreme sports or to do yoga, to eat healthy and to take proper supplements. Introducing such mandates may technically be possible, but it would leave us with a system like the social credit score where we need to prove our smoking, drinking or yoga status in order to be allowed to just be. Being required to prove our vaccination status already introduces a little bit of this and vaccinations could be done without this, by just not mandating them. I think it is fair to protest against this.
- xiphias2 5y ago
  Taking away money from people generally shortens their life expectancy (rich people live longer), so while it's still very far from taking their life, the direction looks clear.
  - david38 5y ago
    That’s about the worst stretch I’ve ever heard. I guess I should shoot the next guy who tries to give me a parking ticket?
    - xiphias2 5y ago
      No, but I'm not sure that it would be a bad thing to bring back capital punishment (like the guillotine) for huge financial crimes.
    - 1123581321 5y ago
      You should work to reform your local parking enforcement so it can’t overwhelm poor people with tickets and boot their cars.

Ataraxiaist 5y ago

It seems like quite a political miscalculation. It makes me wonder who advises him because it really is the type of move you would hope your political opposition makes when future elections are involved.