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I wonder if social media has weakened our focus to the point where long term change is difficult. BLM matter had a massive run out the gate and then nothing rea

I wonder if social media has weakened our focus to the point where long term change is difficult. BLM matter had a massive run out the gate and then nothing really changed. The Amir Locke shooting has not really taken on a national protest atmosphere like earlier shooting did. There are just so many things to notice today on social media that its difficult to focus on one. You have both sides politically calling for the end of the world if the other side wins, people acting like Joe Rogan is one of the four horsemen of the apocalypse, etc. Everything no matter how niche is presented as an emergency. Human minds can only focus on so many concurrent emergencies so everything just kind of fades away eventually.

A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
For all my dislike of BLM, it is hard to argue that they did not have impact on culture, nation psyche or even law framework. I agree with your 'next emergency' characterization though.
- __turbobrew__ 5y ago
  A few decade ago nobody really cared about black history month in Canada — it was basically a non event. Now I see black history month based ads and programs on TV all the time in Canada. Black issues have a disproportionate media and culture presence in Canada given the small proportion of black people in Canada. You also see numerous Canadian companies making statements regarding black issues and events. You never hear about Asian history month or Native American history month. You also never hear Canadian companies making statements regarding Native issues and events such as the genocide of Native people and culture just a few decades ago. In Canada BLM has greatly raised the profile of black issues and somewhat effectively pushed the “silence is compliance” narrative which many companies have bought into.
lalaland1125 5y ago
> BLM matter had a massive run out the gate and then nothing really changed This is quite incorrect. There have been some pretty large changes in our criminal justice system over the last 2 years. The main changes have been: - Reform District Attorneys like Gascon have been elected in many major cities - Elimination of cash bail in many parts of the US, most importantly New York (we were also very close to eliminating cash bail in California, but bail bond companies invested heavily to stop that) - Biden appointing a bunch of public defenders to federal courts
- jalk 5y ago
  Is there anything preventing CA judges from setting bail at $1 in cases where a NY judge will now not set bail?
  - lalaland1125 5y ago
    Judges can't do that because you can't just wholesale eliminate cash bail without other changes as you can't just release everyone. The new laws are necessary to introduce alternatives as part of that elimination. For example, the law in California would give judges risk scores to switch to a risk based bail system.
    - aerostable_slug 5y ago
      Risk scoring has been problematic after AI/expert risk scoring systems produced politically unpalatable results. It is difficult to see a productive way out of this dilemma since "correcting" the input data is a priori impossible to do in an objective way, and skewing the algorithms will almost certainly produce unintended effects (e.g. a violent criminal being underscored, released, then they victimize innocents again).
      - lern_too_spel 5y ago
        Whether the risk score is discriminatory on protected classes can be easily measured. (After implementing a risk score system, is the fraction of bail jumpers equivalent across groups?) I assume that kind of measurement is what prompted the overhaul of cash bail.
        josephcsible 5y ago
        But unless the system is either completely perfect (i.e., its predictions are never wrong), or completely worthless because it ignores all input data and always gives the same risk score, then there will always be some measurement that says it's discriminatory on protected classes: https://arxiv.org/abs/1707.01195 https://arxiv.org/abs/1707.01195
rhacker 5y ago
For me it was Kony 2012 that taught me this. Here you have every person in the world with a focus on one goal: capture Joe Kony. Did it happen? No. The internet is a memey money making machine and nothing more.
- vmception 5y ago
  yes, sell branded merchandise. dropship Q-branded and BLM branded merch. two separate LLCs if you feel you need to. Like how Unilever owns Dove brand and Axe brand. Learn from the Dutch, they've been doing corporations for 600 years. and derivatives like pitch fork futures. and cake futures, because eventually they'll get hungry. okay for the last two I was being facetious but for the first two I am dead serious.
  - guerrilla 5y ago
    It's called recouperation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recuperation_(politics) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recuperation_(politics)
    - vmception 5y ago
      I’m doing my part!
    - rhacker 5y ago
      Thanks for that, didn't know it had a name.
_jal 5y ago
> Everything no matter how niche is presented as an emergency A phrase I heard recently for this is "Klaxon culture", and it seems to fit. Effectively, what used to be called information warfare, which was mainly practiced on enemy populations by military agents during war and near-war, has become a democratized, routine tool of domestic politics. It destroys community, and atomizes populations, among other nasty consequences. I know for me, I have ended up ignoring "real" issues I would have had interest in trying to help with, because I was ignoring the bullshit-machine. Welcome to the future.
- wonderwonder 5y ago
  I have seen this in real life, my sister cut off contact with my family as we differed with her over a couple social issues. Not even differed, we just did not take them as seriously as she did. Have not spoken to her in over 3 years. Pretty strange.
  - david38 5y ago
    I’ve seen this happen. Usually the person who leaves calls the others Nazis, un-evolved, redneck, whatever. It’s a strong sense of superiority. I’m curious to see how long, if ever it takes for the average person who does this to realize they over-reacted, or how long it takes for the other party to see the light.
- lazyeye 5y ago
  I'd say its almost certainly true that foreign actors are playing a large role in encouraging its appearance in domestic politics. But the biggest driver is the mainstream media who no longer have a business model (destroyed by the internet). So now they just generate fake controversy as cheaply as possible, to attract eyeballs for advertisers. And there is nothing cheaper than opinion. Hot-button issues like racism etc are perfect for this.
  - JacobThreeThree 5y ago
    >its almost certainly true that foreign actors are playing a large role in encouraging its appearance in domestic politics I would say it's foreign and domestic actors.
DoreenMichele 5y ago
People have a hard time effectively measuring real change. I don't know enough about the instances you cite to speak to them but I have at times tracked my own metrics for things that mattered to me. Gradual social change is often more persistent than dramatic and obvious change. It's more persistent in part because it goes largely unnoticed. Change happens all the time yet we tend to feel like whatever is currently the norm is "normal." People are mostly not talented at tracking real change or even noticing it. We tend to instead notice the crisis du jour.
commandlinefan 5y ago
> The Amir Locke shooting has not really taken on a national protest atmosphere Well, remember - BLM has been around since 2012 (when Trayvon Martin was shot). They did sponsor some protests here and there (Michael Brown, Freddie Gray) but didn't capture the entire country until 2020. So what was different? I really think it was two things: Donald Trump and corona virus lockdowns. The protests were likely 50% Donald Trump protests and 50% an excuse to get out of the house after having been locked down for a year. Now we don't have either thing, so we're back to "normal" for BLM.
- csee 5y ago
  I'd say it was 1/4 Trump 1/4 lockdowns 1/4 the emotional visual imagery of the knee on the neck 1/4 social media penetration of 2020s compared to 2012
  - gknoy 5y ago
    I think that the fact that we had irrefutable video evidence of it happening (as opposed to e.g. Martin or other "well the officer thought he had a gun" events) made it much easier to gain traction in the public consciousness. There was no split-second-bad-decisions that could be claimed (such as when officers shot the man for not obeying conflicting commands), just multiple minutes of sickening brutality.
- Izkata 5y ago
  > and 50% an excuse to get out of the house after having been locked down for a year. Let's not mess up the timeline - at that point it had only been like two or three months.
stronglikedan 5y ago
> Everything no matter how niche is presented as an emergency. It's "appeal to emotion", and it works. > Amir Locke This event was one administration too late to make a splash, unfortunately. > BLM They got exposed as Marxists, and everyone started distancing themselves, thankfully.
- raidicy 5y ago
  >They got exposed as Marxists, and everyone started distancing themselves, thankfully. What does that mean though? Why would Marxism be a signal for avoiding the movement? I don't know anything about Marxism.
  - mantas 5y ago
    Ideology responsible for millions of deaths by USSR, Communist China, Pol Pot and other similar regimes.
  - engineer_22 5y ago
    In its own terms, Marxism seeks an end to alienation and exploitation. That is to say, the Marxist vision is to create a utopian society. Heaven on Earth. When heaven doesn't come, you need a scapegoat, and the Marxists start killing people. Ukrainian pogroms, Great Leap Forward, Khmer Rouge, there's enough examples to be convinced that Marxism is inherently genocidal.
  - wyre 5y ago
    Because in America anything that isn’t Capitalism is viewed as the enemy after decades of propaganda against the USSR. Marxism is socioeconomic analysis of class structures. Marx and Engel’s book Capital is largely a critique of capitalism. Vladimir Lenin expanded on these ideas with methods to transition to a communist society (another thing Marx wrote about). After Lenin died Stalin took power over the USSR and committed atrocities against mankind, fighting Nazis, and leading the country through an industrial revolution. Mao expanded on these ideas in China and is still on track with their 100 year plan written ~70 years ago (as far as I know). Dismissing Marxism is good for capital and the ruling class as it views BLM as its enemy.
blockwriter 5y ago
Internet discourse will never resemble the church in its capacity to pursue political ends. Sometimes these ends are a good, sometimes, to many people, they are a wrong, but that structure gets people in the habit of concentration and concentrated effort.

A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago

For all my dislike of BLM, it is hard to argue that they did not have impact on culture, nation psyche or even law framework. I agree with your 'next emergency' characterization though.

__turbobrew__ 5y ago
A few decade ago nobody really cared about black history month in Canada — it was basically a non event. Now I see black history month based ads and programs on TV all the time in Canada. Black issues have a disproportionate media and culture presence in Canada given the small proportion of black people in Canada. You also see numerous Canadian companies making statements regarding black issues and events. You never hear about Asian history month or Native American history month. You also never hear Canadian companies making statements regarding Native issues and events such as the genocide of Native people and culture just a few decades ago. In Canada BLM has greatly raised the profile of black issues and somewhat effectively pushed the “silence is compliance” narrative which many companies have bought into.

lalaland1125 5y ago

> BLM matter had a massive run out the gate and then nothing really changed This is quite incorrect. There have been some pretty large changes in our criminal justice system over the last 2 years. The main changes have been: - Reform District Attorneys like Gascon have been elected in many major cities - Elimination of cash bail in many parts of the US, most importantly New York (we were also very close to eliminating cash bail in California, but bail bond companies invested heavily to stop that) - Biden appointing a bunch of public defenders to federal courts

jalk 5y ago
Is there anything preventing CA judges from setting bail at $1 in cases where a NY judge will now not set bail?
- lalaland1125 5y ago
  Judges can't do that because you can't just wholesale eliminate cash bail without other changes as you can't just release everyone. The new laws are necessary to introduce alternatives as part of that elimination. For example, the law in California would give judges risk scores to switch to a risk based bail system.
  - aerostable_slug 5y ago
    Risk scoring has been problematic after AI/expert risk scoring systems produced politically unpalatable results. It is difficult to see a productive way out of this dilemma since "correcting" the input data is a priori impossible to do in an objective way, and skewing the algorithms will almost certainly produce unintended effects (e.g. a violent criminal being underscored, released, then they victimize innocents again).
    - lern_too_spel 5y ago
      Whether the risk score is discriminatory on protected classes can be easily measured. (After implementing a risk score system, is the fraction of bail jumpers equivalent across groups?) I assume that kind of measurement is what prompted the overhaul of cash bail.
      - josephcsible 5y ago
        But unless the system is either completely perfect (i.e., its predictions are never wrong), or completely worthless because it ignores all input data and always gives the same risk score, then there will always be some measurement that says it's discriminatory on protected classes: https://arxiv.org/abs/1707.01195 https://arxiv.org/abs/1707.01195

rhacker 5y ago

For me it was Kony 2012 that taught me this. Here you have every person in the world with a focus on one goal: capture Joe Kony. Did it happen? No. The internet is a memey money making machine and nothing more.

vmception 5y ago
yes, sell branded merchandise. dropship Q-branded and BLM branded merch. two separate LLCs if you feel you need to. Like how Unilever owns Dove brand and Axe brand. Learn from the Dutch, they've been doing corporations for 600 years. and derivatives like pitch fork futures. and cake futures, because eventually they'll get hungry. okay for the last two I was being facetious but for the first two I am dead serious.
- guerrilla 5y ago
  It's called recouperation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recuperation_(politics) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recuperation_(politics)
  - vmception 5y ago
    I’m doing my part!
  - rhacker 5y ago
    Thanks for that, didn't know it had a name.

_jal 5y ago

> Everything no matter how niche is presented as an emergency A phrase I heard recently for this is "Klaxon culture", and it seems to fit. Effectively, what used to be called information warfare, which was mainly practiced on enemy populations by military agents during war and near-war, has become a democratized, routine tool of domestic politics. It destroys community, and atomizes populations, among other nasty consequences. I know for me, I have ended up ignoring "real" issues I would have had interest in trying to help with, because I was ignoring the bullshit-machine. Welcome to the future.

wonderwonder 5y ago
I have seen this in real life, my sister cut off contact with my family as we differed with her over a couple social issues. Not even differed, we just did not take them as seriously as she did. Have not spoken to her in over 3 years. Pretty strange.
- david38 5y ago
  I’ve seen this happen. Usually the person who leaves calls the others Nazis, un-evolved, redneck, whatever. It’s a strong sense of superiority. I’m curious to see how long, if ever it takes for the average person who does this to realize they over-reacted, or how long it takes for the other party to see the light.
lazyeye 5y ago
I'd say its almost certainly true that foreign actors are playing a large role in encouraging its appearance in domestic politics. But the biggest driver is the mainstream media who no longer have a business model (destroyed by the internet). So now they just generate fake controversy as cheaply as possible, to attract eyeballs for advertisers. And there is nothing cheaper than opinion. Hot-button issues like racism etc are perfect for this.
- JacobThreeThree 5y ago
  >its almost certainly true that foreign actors are playing a large role in encouraging its appearance in domestic politics I would say it's foreign and domestic actors.

DoreenMichele 5y ago

People have a hard time effectively measuring real change. I don't know enough about the instances you cite to speak to them but I have at times tracked my own metrics for things that mattered to me. Gradual social change is often more persistent than dramatic and obvious change. It's more persistent in part because it goes largely unnoticed. Change happens all the time yet we tend to feel like whatever is currently the norm is "normal." People are mostly not talented at tracking real change or even noticing it. We tend to instead notice the crisis du jour.

commandlinefan 5y ago

> The Amir Locke shooting has not really taken on a national protest atmosphere Well, remember - BLM has been around since 2012 (when Trayvon Martin was shot). They did sponsor some protests here and there (Michael Brown, Freddie Gray) but didn't capture the entire country until 2020. So what was different? I really think it was two things: Donald Trump and corona virus lockdowns. The protests were likely 50% Donald Trump protests and 50% an excuse to get out of the house after having been locked down for a year. Now we don't have either thing, so we're back to "normal" for BLM.

csee 5y ago
I'd say it was 1/4 Trump 1/4 lockdowns 1/4 the emotional visual imagery of the knee on the neck 1/4 social media penetration of 2020s compared to 2012
- gknoy 5y ago
  I think that the fact that we had irrefutable video evidence of it happening (as opposed to e.g. Martin or other "well the officer thought he had a gun" events) made it much easier to gain traction in the public consciousness. There was no split-second-bad-decisions that could be claimed (such as when officers shot the man for not obeying conflicting commands), just multiple minutes of sickening brutality.
Izkata 5y ago
> and 50% an excuse to get out of the house after having been locked down for a year. Let's not mess up the timeline - at that point it had only been like two or three months.

stronglikedan 5y ago

> Everything no matter how niche is presented as an emergency. It's "appeal to emotion", and it works. > Amir Locke This event was one administration too late to make a splash, unfortunately. > BLM They got exposed as Marxists, and everyone started distancing themselves, thankfully.

raidicy 5y ago
>They got exposed as Marxists, and everyone started distancing themselves, thankfully. What does that mean though? Why would Marxism be a signal for avoiding the movement? I don't know anything about Marxism.
- mantas 5y ago
  Ideology responsible for millions of deaths by USSR, Communist China, Pol Pot and other similar regimes.
- engineer_22 5y ago
  In its own terms, Marxism seeks an end to alienation and exploitation. That is to say, the Marxist vision is to create a utopian society. Heaven on Earth. When heaven doesn't come, you need a scapegoat, and the Marxists start killing people. Ukrainian pogroms, Great Leap Forward, Khmer Rouge, there's enough examples to be convinced that Marxism is inherently genocidal.
- wyre 5y ago
  Because in America anything that isn’t Capitalism is viewed as the enemy after decades of propaganda against the USSR. Marxism is socioeconomic analysis of class structures. Marx and Engel’s book Capital is largely a critique of capitalism. Vladimir Lenin expanded on these ideas with methods to transition to a communist society (another thing Marx wrote about). After Lenin died Stalin took power over the USSR and committed atrocities against mankind, fighting Nazis, and leading the country through an industrial revolution. Mao expanded on these ideas in China and is still on track with their 100 year plan written ~70 years ago (as far as I know). Dismissing Marxism is good for capital and the ruling class as it views BLM as its enemy.

blockwriter 5y ago

Internet discourse will never resemble the church in its capacity to pursue political ends. Sometimes these ends are a good, sometimes, to many people, they are a wrong, but that structure gets people in the habit of concentration and concentrated effort.