4 ms·

War can be like a freight train. It's hard to stop on a dime --especially when the population has been completely sucked into the effort through religion (empe

by mc32 5y ago

War can be like a freight train. It's hard to stop on a dime --especially when the population has been completely sucked into the effort through religion (emperor-god) and additional propaganda. Just about all the civilian population was directly or indirectly supporting the war effort. It's hard to over-state how wrapped up in the war effort he whole nation was. It was untenable to just quit. Of course there we some seasoned military figures who knew better, but just like us, when our generals warn against war (Iraq invasion for example) when the wheels are set in motion, there is little stopping it.) Germany as well. The war was over way before Berlin capitulated.

nradov 5y ago
The civilian population had no control and their religious beliefs were irrelevant to policy. The emperor and the top military leaders could have just quit at any time. I understand why they didn't want to quit, but they always had that option.
- mc32 5y ago
  With decades under their belt trouncing and prancing around the East and having their way, marauding, pillaging, raping, burning, invading, etc., it was unthinkable for most in their military leadership (as well as civilians) that they could be defeated on their "home islands". (You know, previous war doctrines and all). It was unfathomable. I do think their religious beliefs were relevant to policy. The US was very cognizant of this when they demanded the unconditional surrender of Japan.
  - livueta 5y ago
    > I do think their religious beliefs were relevant to policy. The US was very cognizant of this when they demanded the unconditional surrender of Japan. That's certainly the Chrysanthemum and the Sword take on it. I'd agree that American conceptions of Japanese religious beliefs influenced American policy. The extent to which emperor-worship was truly inculcated in the population at large is still subject to scholarly debate, but the trend is toward understanding that Japanese internal religious propaganda doesn't necessarily reflect deeply-held cultural beliefs. It's unquestionable that タケヤリで (with bamboo spears) was a thing to an extent and that an invasion of the mainland would have been a clusterfuck, but I personally see it (as described up-thread) as more ascribable to the comprehensive failure of the nation's autocratic elites at holding non-idiotic worldviews, rather than them (or the population at large) being hyper-fanatic State Shintoists.
- numpad0 5y ago
  > The emperor and the top military leaders could have just quit at any time. And trigger an immediate army coup to secure the Emperor and destroy defeat acceptance recordings. That happened.
- livueta 5y ago
  The military-political establishment had spent the past decade or more basically purity-spiralling out anyone seen as insufficiently dedicated to the cause of imperial expansion. To me, the most striking example of this is what happened to Ishiwara Kanji[1]. This is the guy who gekokujou'd Manchukuo into existence, so not exactly a cautious humanitarian. Ishiwara later got purged for opposing further expansionism in China: he thought that grabbing Manchukuo had been enough to assure Japan's quest for autarky in vital military materials, and that continued messing around in China would accelerate confrontation with the West and act as a resource drain on Japan's ability to shape itself into a militarily self-sufficient state. He was totally right, of course, but got it in the neck anyway. There's a lot more examples of this, both in the military branches and in elite political circles. I highly recommend the scholarly book Japan Prepares For Total War[2] if you're interested in the details. The result, though, was that many voices of reason were explicitly removed from power for being too reasonable. At this point in the war, the cast of characters running the show weren't able or willing to see sense and had insulated themselves from all advice and criticism. --- [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanji_Ishiwara https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanji_Ishiwara [2] https://books.google.com/books/about/Japan_Prepares_for_Total_War.html?id=zA4eRWKd3DMC https://books.google.com/books/about/Japan_Prepares_for_Tota...
adolph 5y ago
> War can be like a freight train. It's hard to stop on a dime --especially when the population has been completely sucked into the effort through religion (emperor-god) and additional propaganda. Case in point: After Japan officially surrendered in August 1945, Japanese holdouts in Southeast Asian countries and Pacific islands that had been part of the Japanese empire continued to fight local police, government forces, and American and British forces stationed to assist the newly formed governments. Many holdouts were discovered in Southeast Asia and the Pacific Islands over the following decades, with the last verified holdout, Private Teruo Nakamura, surrendering on Morotai Island in Indonesia in December 1974. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_holdout https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_holdout
- jacquesm 5y ago
  Brainwashing is a powerful thing. Make sure it never happens to you.
thorncorona 5y ago
It was war from the top led by the far-right. A great video about how Japan went from a democracy to an ultra-nationalist war-hawk government. [1] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voo0CpPcE0c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voo0CpPcE0c

by mc32 5y ago

nradov 5y ago

The civilian population had no control and their religious beliefs were irrelevant to policy. The emperor and the top military leaders could have just quit at any time. I understand why they didn't want to quit, but they always had that option.

mc32 5y ago
With decades under their belt trouncing and prancing around the East and having their way, marauding, pillaging, raping, burning, invading, etc., it was unthinkable for most in their military leadership (as well as civilians) that they could be defeated on their "home islands". (You know, previous war doctrines and all). It was unfathomable. I do think their religious beliefs were relevant to policy. The US was very cognizant of this when they demanded the unconditional surrender of Japan.
- livueta 5y ago
  > I do think their religious beliefs were relevant to policy. The US was very cognizant of this when they demanded the unconditional surrender of Japan. That's certainly the Chrysanthemum and the Sword take on it. I'd agree that American conceptions of Japanese religious beliefs influenced American policy. The extent to which emperor-worship was truly inculcated in the population at large is still subject to scholarly debate, but the trend is toward understanding that Japanese internal religious propaganda doesn't necessarily reflect deeply-held cultural beliefs. It's unquestionable that タケヤリで (with bamboo spears) was a thing to an extent and that an invasion of the mainland would have been a clusterfuck, but I personally see it (as described up-thread) as more ascribable to the comprehensive failure of the nation's autocratic elites at holding non-idiotic worldviews, rather than them (or the population at large) being hyper-fanatic State Shintoists.
numpad0 5y ago
> The emperor and the top military leaders could have just quit at any time. And trigger an immediate army coup to secure the Emperor and destroy defeat acceptance recordings. That happened.
livueta 5y ago
The military-political establishment had spent the past decade or more basically purity-spiralling out anyone seen as insufficiently dedicated to the cause of imperial expansion. To me, the most striking example of this is what happened to Ishiwara Kanji[1]. This is the guy who gekokujou'd Manchukuo into existence, so not exactly a cautious humanitarian. Ishiwara later got purged for opposing further expansionism in China: he thought that grabbing Manchukuo had been enough to assure Japan's quest for autarky in vital military materials, and that continued messing around in China would accelerate confrontation with the West and act as a resource drain on Japan's ability to shape itself into a militarily self-sufficient state. He was totally right, of course, but got it in the neck anyway. There's a lot more examples of this, both in the military branches and in elite political circles. I highly recommend the scholarly book Japan Prepares For Total War[2] if you're interested in the details. The result, though, was that many voices of reason were explicitly removed from power for being too reasonable. At this point in the war, the cast of characters running the show weren't able or willing to see sense and had insulated themselves from all advice and criticism. --- [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanji_Ishiwara https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanji_Ishiwara [2] https://books.google.com/books/about/Japan_Prepares_for_Total_War.html?id=zA4eRWKd3DMC https://books.google.com/books/about/Japan_Prepares_for_Tota...

adolph 5y ago

> War can be like a freight train. It's hard to stop on a dime --especially when the population has been completely sucked into the effort through religion (emperor-god) and additional propaganda. Case in point: After Japan officially surrendered in August 1945, Japanese holdouts in Southeast Asian countries and Pacific islands that had been part of the Japanese empire continued to fight local police, government forces, and American and British forces stationed to assist the newly formed governments. Many holdouts were discovered in Southeast Asia and the Pacific Islands over the following decades, with the last verified holdout, Private Teruo Nakamura, surrendering on Morotai Island in Indonesia in December 1974. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_holdout https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_holdout

jacquesm 5y ago
Brainwashing is a powerful thing. Make sure it never happens to you.

thorncorona 5y ago

It was war from the top led by the far-right. A great video about how Japan went from a democracy to an ultra-nationalist war-hawk government. [1] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voo0CpPcE0c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voo0CpPcE0c