6 ms·

Honestly this seems like a good idea. If a company stops selling/supporting a product (or never starts), its IP rights should be forfeit. Require them to be sol

Honestly this seems like a good idea. If a company stops selling/supporting a product (or never starts), its IP rights should be forfeit. Require them to be sold to a company willing to sell/support the device, or they should become public domain. This change would probably fix most issues with current US IP law.

sneak 5y ago
How would that keep the company in business to provide support? Seems like the same outcome, to me.
- kadoban 5y ago
  They should be forced to fund a trust that can support all users for their lifetime.
  - subroutine 5y ago
    How much do you reckon that would cost per user?
    - kadoban 5y ago
      A fairly large amount, even for minimal support. If it's prohibitive to create cool medical devices due to this, the government can assist (guaranteed loans against future profit? whatever, I'm sure there's a bunch of ways to structure it). Maybe it will push these companies to make support easier as well, and Open Source parts of it where it makes sense to.
  - victorronin 5y ago
    I am torn. On one hand, this is great idea (exactly for such cases). I feel unbelievably bad for users. On another hand. Lifetime support of technology (say 50 years) is damn expensive. Let say you need a dozen of engineers (hardware + software) + doctors to keep it going. It's 12 people * 200k salary (if you don't like this number, pick your own) * 50 years = $120M. I think you can potentially argue that you don't need a dozen people to support this. However, I think it's a fair number to support aging hardware + software. Unfortunately, such things work only with a scale. You need 10 people to support 100 customers, 20 people to support 1000 customers and 40 people to support 10000. If they got to 10000 customers, I could see them getting enough money to fund such trust. Having just 300 customers won't be enough. Looking at the crunchbase (https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/second-sight https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/second-sight). They whole funding was $130M.
    - staticautomatic 5y ago
      Perhaps this could be accomplished by making them front or insure the cost of the expected liability — being at least the cost of removing unsupported devices.
- theossuary 5y ago
  It wouldn't necessarily, but it'd allow others to fill the niche should the company stop filling it themselves. My understanding is that copyright law is meant to allow a company to profit off its ideas for a set period of time, in order to recoup R&D costs. Then, if the company no longer has the means to profit off the IP, and won't sell it to another who wishes to make the IP available, the IP should become public domain.
reedciccio 5y ago
Easy to say but what about paying creditors? The legal system we have now needs to be radically rethought to allow a scenario where a company going bankrupt will be forced to give up its patents and copyright on software to the public, instead of selling them to the highest bidder who will then decide what to do. It's not simple, but we need a serious reform in this direction.
- theossuary 5y ago
  I don't see what would be so different than what we have now? A company in bankruptcy is already forced to sell all IP to satisfy creditors. Now the only additional requirement is they sell to a company planning to make use of the IP. If they can't the IP is worthless, and so should just end up in public domain.
  - BobbyJo 5y ago
    I don't think you're considering how loose the definition of 'use' is in this case. They might intend to 'use' the IP in a way that makes them no more able to help previous customers than a patent lawyer is able to build a robot.
    - theossuary 5y ago
      I think you're getting hung up on minutia that could be sorted out. The definition of "use" could be sufficiently limited to allow for the company to either support the previous customers, or lose the IP
  - Johnny555 5y ago
    But even if the new company plans on using the IP, there's no guarantee that the company buying the IP will use it for the same purpose or want to continue supporting the existing use. Like maybe the same technology is useful for implants to provide artificial hearing to deaf people and the new company wants to use it for that. So if the sale of IP is allowed because the new company will use it, that still leaves the visual implant users in the dark (no pun intended), but if the sale of IP is not allowed or is placed into the public domain to allow visual implant users to use it, then the original company was deprived of the value of the IP.

sneak 5y ago

How would that keep the company in business to provide support? Seems like the same outcome, to me.

kadoban 5y ago
They should be forced to fund a trust that can support all users for their lifetime.
- subroutine 5y ago
  How much do you reckon that would cost per user?
  - kadoban 5y ago
    A fairly large amount, even for minimal support. If it's prohibitive to create cool medical devices due to this, the government can assist (guaranteed loans against future profit? whatever, I'm sure there's a bunch of ways to structure it). Maybe it will push these companies to make support easier as well, and Open Source parts of it where it makes sense to.
- victorronin 5y ago
  I am torn. On one hand, this is great idea (exactly for such cases). I feel unbelievably bad for users. On another hand. Lifetime support of technology (say 50 years) is damn expensive. Let say you need a dozen of engineers (hardware + software) + doctors to keep it going. It's 12 people * 200k salary (if you don't like this number, pick your own) * 50 years = $120M. I think you can potentially argue that you don't need a dozen people to support this. However, I think it's a fair number to support aging hardware + software. Unfortunately, such things work only with a scale. You need 10 people to support 100 customers, 20 people to support 1000 customers and 40 people to support 10000. If they got to 10000 customers, I could see them getting enough money to fund such trust. Having just 300 customers won't be enough. Looking at the crunchbase (https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/second-sight https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/second-sight). They whole funding was $130M.
  - staticautomatic 5y ago
    Perhaps this could be accomplished by making them front or insure the cost of the expected liability — being at least the cost of removing unsupported devices.
theossuary 5y ago
It wouldn't necessarily, but it'd allow others to fill the niche should the company stop filling it themselves. My understanding is that copyright law is meant to allow a company to profit off its ideas for a set period of time, in order to recoup R&D costs. Then, if the company no longer has the means to profit off the IP, and won't sell it to another who wishes to make the IP available, the IP should become public domain.

reedciccio 5y ago

Easy to say but what about paying creditors? The legal system we have now needs to be radically rethought to allow a scenario where a company going bankrupt will be forced to give up its patents and copyright on software to the public, instead of selling them to the highest bidder who will then decide what to do. It's not simple, but we need a serious reform in this direction.

theossuary 5y ago
I don't see what would be so different than what we have now? A company in bankruptcy is already forced to sell all IP to satisfy creditors. Now the only additional requirement is they sell to a company planning to make use of the IP. If they can't the IP is worthless, and so should just end up in public domain.
- BobbyJo 5y ago
  I don't think you're considering how loose the definition of 'use' is in this case. They might intend to 'use' the IP in a way that makes them no more able to help previous customers than a patent lawyer is able to build a robot.
  - theossuary 5y ago
    I think you're getting hung up on minutia that could be sorted out. The definition of "use" could be sufficiently limited to allow for the company to either support the previous customers, or lose the IP
- Johnny555 5y ago
  But even if the new company plans on using the IP, there's no guarantee that the company buying the IP will use it for the same purpose or want to continue supporting the existing use. Like maybe the same technology is useful for implants to provide artificial hearing to deaf people and the new company wants to use it for that. So if the sale of IP is allowed because the new company will use it, that still leaves the visual implant users in the dark (no pun intended), but if the sale of IP is not allowed or is placed into the public domain to allow visual implant users to use it, then the original company was deprived of the value of the IP.