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It's unclear to me why this is bad. The expat is not the cause of those people's poverty. The relationship between paid servants and employee should be mutually

It's unclear to me why this is bad. The expat is not the cause of those people's poverty. The relationship between paid servants and employee should be mutually beneficial, as each gets what they desire, money on one hand, and convenience or more free time on the other. It's not like wealthy people in developed countries don't have servants who are comparatively poor. Multiples of those servants salaries are spent on frivolous amusements. What's the better alternative? That they not spend money on staff and instead hoard it, depriving others of job opportunities? Hand out bags of money for no reason?

rayiner 5y ago
I understand your economic arguments. But I still think that anyone who would want to leave their relatively egalitarian western society to live among such inequality is morally defective. And the social stratification in third world countries is completely different than what you have in America. For awhile we used a cleaning service run by someone who lives in our subdivision. In these third world countries, the lives of affluent expats and the natives who serve them pretty much don’t intersect at all except through the service relationship.
- ExpatSteve 5y ago
  > But I still think that anyone who would want to leave their relatively egalitarian western society to live among such inequality is morally defective. Open up your closets, cabinets, etc. How many of the goods you own are made in the West? How many are made in places like China, Vietnam, Bangladesh, Cambodia, Indonesia, etc.? How can you say that Western society is "relatively egalitarian" when the majority of the goods Westerners consume are produced in poor or developing countries where inequality is the rule not the exception? For heaven's sake, for decades, the West has literally shipped its trash to these countries for disposal or "recycling". The West is only "relatively egalitarian" so long as you pretend that the West is a closed, self-contained society. In reality, the West has outsourced poverty, ultra-abusive labor practices, corruption, pollution and environmental destruction to countries most of their citizens can't locate on a map. Out of sight, out of mind. If a Westerner is "morally defective" for choosing to live in poor, polluted, corrupt countries, what should one make of the Westerners who wouldn't want to even visit them but have no problem filling their lives with products made in them? > In these third world countries, the lives of affluent expats and the natives who serve them pretty much don’t intersect at all except through the service relationship. Ever lived in, say, the SF Bay Area? The dynamic between the affluent and the people who serve them isn't as different in the West as you make it out to be. The hotshot FANG engineer making $400,000/year and living in a $2.5 million house in Cupertino likely isn't "intersecting" with the cook at a Chipotle who shares an apartment with 3 other people in the worst neighborhood in the East Bay and commutes with multiple people to Mountain View every day.
  - rayiner 5y ago
    > Ever lived in, say, the SF Bay Area? I would never live in the Bay Area. I lived in DC, and the economic inequality was soul sucking. It was especially depressing only ever meeting non-white/Asian people in service roles. I got my family the heck out of there.
- kelnos 5y ago
  > In these third world countries, the lives of affluent expats and the natives who serve them pretty much don’t intersect at all except through the service relationship. How is this any different from in the US (or anywhere else, really)? Most well-off (or even just "comfortable") people don't mix much with low-income folks, outside of service relationships.
  - rayiner 5y ago
    That’s untrue for huge swaths of America. In the Iowa town where my wife grew up, the doctor’s kid went to the same school as the poorest kids in town, because there was only one school for everyone. Even here in Annapolis, there’s e.g. not really any place to eat in town that nearly everyone couldn’t afford to go at least on a special occasion.
    - ExpatSteve 5y ago
      > In the Iowa town where my wife grew up, the doctor’s kid went to the same school as the poorest kids in town, because there was only one school for everyone. But the same would be true if you decide to live in the countryside or smaller city in a developing country. In major cities everywhere in the world, including the West, affluents can and often do live in bubbles. This has nothing to do with expats.
    - everforward 5y ago
      From my experience, it's still true in rural areas. I lived in the middle of nowhere, and the doctors' kids didn't go to the same school as the poorest kids in town. Typically, one spouse didn't work and would handle ferrying the kids significant distances to get to a better school. Country clubs were also popular among the wealthy, and they had restaurants most people couldn't access. Golfing was a sign of wealth, since the only nearby golf course was at the country club. Hobbies also divided people. One family friend had his own airstrip and planes. Riding horses was another popular and expensive hobby, and many chose to pay those less well-off to take care of their horses in the stables. Homes were a huge division. Labor was cheap, so it wasn't uncommon for the doctors to live in homes so large that they basically couldn't be sold when they wanted to move. Time was also a big differentiator. Wealthy families spent a lot more time away from home, driving an hour or so to get to the closest major city to shop at larger grocery stores with more exotic ingredients, or going to ethnic restaurants, or going to shows/concerts/etc. That was enabled by only having to have a single working spouse and/or hiring a maid. Almost all the well-off families had maids. The fissure still exists, it just comes out in different ways since the local market can't sustain a single $50/plate restaurant.
- seanmcdirmid 5y ago
  I lived in a developing country (China) for 9 years and could never bother with a maid if even a cleaning service. The logistics were just too huge for me, as a non native, and it didn’t seem to be worth it. I had friends who had babysitters, but more the part time kind and labor costs rose rapidly in the last decade. But the biggest thing is: the expats were often seen as poorer than many of the natives. The rich Chinese in Beijing had drivers, maids, etc… it wasn’t so common for the foreigners. I’ve felt the same way in Manila, Bangkok, the only place that seem to be where foreigners come out as the rich people are tourist towns (like Phuket, Bali, Boracay) designed completely around extracting their money. But admittedly, none of those places are truly third world.
- tim333 5y ago
  I've lived in London and Vietnam. I don't think living in the relative poverty of Vietnam is a moral problem. The people will still be relatively poor if you don't go there and keep your eyes shut to the issues. Going there actually reduces local poverty as you can spend money there and benefit them rather than spending it London and benefiting millionaire property owners mostly. I say relative poverty because most people there aren't that badly off and their economy is booming, growing far faster than the UK one.
throw4857372 5y ago
People also complain about rich "Chinese/Russian/Middle Eastern" expats buying up all the property in large Western cities too.

rayiner 5y ago

I understand your economic arguments. But I still think that anyone who would want to leave their relatively egalitarian western society to live among such inequality is morally defective. And the social stratification in third world countries is completely different than what you have in America. For awhile we used a cleaning service run by someone who lives in our subdivision. In these third world countries, the lives of affluent expats and the natives who serve them pretty much don’t intersect at all except through the service relationship.

ExpatSteve 5y ago
> But I still think that anyone who would want to leave their relatively egalitarian western society to live among such inequality is morally defective. Open up your closets, cabinets, etc. How many of the goods you own are made in the West? How many are made in places like China, Vietnam, Bangladesh, Cambodia, Indonesia, etc.? How can you say that Western society is "relatively egalitarian" when the majority of the goods Westerners consume are produced in poor or developing countries where inequality is the rule not the exception? For heaven's sake, for decades, the West has literally shipped its trash to these countries for disposal or "recycling". The West is only "relatively egalitarian" so long as you pretend that the West is a closed, self-contained society. In reality, the West has outsourced poverty, ultra-abusive labor practices, corruption, pollution and environmental destruction to countries most of their citizens can't locate on a map. Out of sight, out of mind. If a Westerner is "morally defective" for choosing to live in poor, polluted, corrupt countries, what should one make of the Westerners who wouldn't want to even visit them but have no problem filling their lives with products made in them? > In these third world countries, the lives of affluent expats and the natives who serve them pretty much don’t intersect at all except through the service relationship. Ever lived in, say, the SF Bay Area? The dynamic between the affluent and the people who serve them isn't as different in the West as you make it out to be. The hotshot FANG engineer making $400,000/year and living in a $2.5 million house in Cupertino likely isn't "intersecting" with the cook at a Chipotle who shares an apartment with 3 other people in the worst neighborhood in the East Bay and commutes with multiple people to Mountain View every day.
- rayiner 5y ago
  > Ever lived in, say, the SF Bay Area? I would never live in the Bay Area. I lived in DC, and the economic inequality was soul sucking. It was especially depressing only ever meeting non-white/Asian people in service roles. I got my family the heck out of there.
kelnos 5y ago
> In these third world countries, the lives of affluent expats and the natives who serve them pretty much don’t intersect at all except through the service relationship. How is this any different from in the US (or anywhere else, really)? Most well-off (or even just "comfortable") people don't mix much with low-income folks, outside of service relationships.
- rayiner 5y ago
  That’s untrue for huge swaths of America. In the Iowa town where my wife grew up, the doctor’s kid went to the same school as the poorest kids in town, because there was only one school for everyone. Even here in Annapolis, there’s e.g. not really any place to eat in town that nearly everyone couldn’t afford to go at least on a special occasion.
  - ExpatSteve 5y ago
    > In the Iowa town where my wife grew up, the doctor’s kid went to the same school as the poorest kids in town, because there was only one school for everyone. But the same would be true if you decide to live in the countryside or smaller city in a developing country. In major cities everywhere in the world, including the West, affluents can and often do live in bubbles. This has nothing to do with expats.
  - everforward 5y ago
    From my experience, it's still true in rural areas. I lived in the middle of nowhere, and the doctors' kids didn't go to the same school as the poorest kids in town. Typically, one spouse didn't work and would handle ferrying the kids significant distances to get to a better school. Country clubs were also popular among the wealthy, and they had restaurants most people couldn't access. Golfing was a sign of wealth, since the only nearby golf course was at the country club. Hobbies also divided people. One family friend had his own airstrip and planes. Riding horses was another popular and expensive hobby, and many chose to pay those less well-off to take care of their horses in the stables. Homes were a huge division. Labor was cheap, so it wasn't uncommon for the doctors to live in homes so large that they basically couldn't be sold when they wanted to move. Time was also a big differentiator. Wealthy families spent a lot more time away from home, driving an hour or so to get to the closest major city to shop at larger grocery stores with more exotic ingredients, or going to ethnic restaurants, or going to shows/concerts/etc. That was enabled by only having to have a single working spouse and/or hiring a maid. Almost all the well-off families had maids. The fissure still exists, it just comes out in different ways since the local market can't sustain a single $50/plate restaurant.
seanmcdirmid 5y ago
I lived in a developing country (China) for 9 years and could never bother with a maid if even a cleaning service. The logistics were just too huge for me, as a non native, and it didn’t seem to be worth it. I had friends who had babysitters, but more the part time kind and labor costs rose rapidly in the last decade. But the biggest thing is: the expats were often seen as poorer than many of the natives. The rich Chinese in Beijing had drivers, maids, etc… it wasn’t so common for the foreigners. I’ve felt the same way in Manila, Bangkok, the only place that seem to be where foreigners come out as the rich people are tourist towns (like Phuket, Bali, Boracay) designed completely around extracting their money. But admittedly, none of those places are truly third world.
tim333 5y ago
I've lived in London and Vietnam. I don't think living in the relative poverty of Vietnam is a moral problem. The people will still be relatively poor if you don't go there and keep your eyes shut to the issues. Going there actually reduces local poverty as you can spend money there and benefit them rather than spending it London and benefiting millionaire property owners mostly. I say relative poverty because most people there aren't that badly off and their economy is booming, growing far faster than the UK one.

throw4857372 5y ago

People also complain about rich "Chinese/Russian/Middle Eastern" expats buying up all the property in large Western cities too.