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Yet another reminder to install as few apps as possible. I know it can be a little trite, but I do mean it earnestly. People say they care about privacy, but th

Yet another reminder to install as few apps as possible. I know it can be a little trite, but I do mean it earnestly. People say they care about privacy, but then they install applications which collect this sort of data. Not using the AirBnB app hardly counts as a hardship.

jimbob45 5y ago
My personal strategy is to keep an old phone around that I load up with apps I need. When I’m not using it (which is 99% of the time), it stays powered off (usually with an empty battery) in my closet.
amelius 5y ago
Except there is an ever-increasing pressure to install more apps. Even governments partake in this. Soon you can't have a normal life without installing at least a dozen of apps.
- kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 5y ago
  > Soon you can't have a normal life without installing at least a dozen of apps. To whom it may concern, Please unsubscribe me from your dystopian hellscape. Very truly yours, GonnaThrowAwayMySmartPhoneAndLiveOffGrid
  - ISL 5y ago
    Please submit your property taxes through our convenient online filing portal.
    - ghaff 5y ago
      You almost certainly have the right to mail a paper check for most things. While I tend to have my bank do it for most things it’s absolutely an option in general. I certainly still use check for a lot of purposes in the US.
      - letitbeirie 5y ago
        Each month my ISP sends me a flyer telling me how much easier it would be to pay them if I let them auto-draft their fee out of my bank account. Each month I tell them what I think of that idea by sending them another check.
        weq 5y ago
        Ahahaha me to. im not living on the grid, yet i havnt installed a single covid app yet. I do live like i am off the grid, while on it. Have my cake, and eat it to. Ahh the churn of Investor money. HN likes to have go's at crypto about "Adding value" but im yet to see a long term sustainable unicorn that comes out of its bloodthirsty VC flush stage to long term sustainable numbers, and product... HINT: Users will GET RID of YOUR PLATFORM as soon as humanly possible the moment you flick the switch and try and make a profit. ATTENTION is CHEAP! there are a thousand other unicorns and VCs looking for pie. You will go out of fashion, you will be replaced.
    - martneumann 5y ago
      Just because many privately owned apps are bad, does not mean the concept of apps is bad. If the government in theory can offer a "secure" open source channel for me to do my business with them without having to go there or pay for postage, why not use it? And why do we still believe that paper docs are secure? Someone needs to look at them and can just as easily "lose" them, too.
      - everdrive 5y ago
        The problem here is the smartphone ecosystem. If there were merely an "app standard" which I could run even if I did not have a Google or Apple device, that would be fine. But, requiring that I give at least some information to Apple, or even more information to Google in order to use a government service is what I take issue with. The bigger problem is that this issue is almost entirely artificial. Most apps are merely glorified web pages. Functionally, they could (in most cases) just be websites and function exactly as well.
- lrvick 5y ago
  I run a tech company and have not used any proprietary apps in several years, not had a cell carrier in well over a year, and a few months ago I ditched my phone entirely. These incremental weaning steps taught me you can live in the modern world comfortably without subscribing to app culture. Restaurants dig out paper menus for me, banks find alternative ways to verify me, etc. There always exists a sometimes undocumented path to engage with most entities with a webapp and without a cell phone carrier, though I do have a VoIP number which I can use from a laptop or DECT phones. Life without a smartphone and apps works pretty much just like it did in the 90s . The privacy and mental health wins are huge. My mind feels like mine again.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
    What do you use for phone calls if you don’t have a mobile phone?
    - dangerboysteve 5y ago
      the previous person said they used a VOIP service so a SIP VOIP client on their Mac. But even so, many people choose not to make phone calls nowadays.
    - xeromal 5y ago
      He said he uses Voip. Presumably, he opens up his laptop and makes a call from a cafe if he needs to.
      - lrvick 5y ago
        Or from any nearby hotel phone or from a DECT phone if I am at home.
  - smcin 5y ago
    How do you travel anywhere, book a flight, hotel or rental car, navigate anywhere, or even get a list of local restaurants? (and when you say 'no proprietary apps', does that include Google Maps?)
- rodgerd 5y ago
  It's always funny reading the different discussions kicked off by articles here; the privacy/confidentiality-oriented folks are in here talking about the relentless pressure to install apps which rummage around your private life inappropriately. On the threads kicked off by someone whining about Apple protecting customer privacy from app authors, people rage that Apple should have no power to stop people loading terrible applications just like this.
  - lrvick 5y ago
    I am one of those that share both sentiments so I am happy to explain. It is better all software be democratized or decentralized which makes the responsibility to filter and ignore bad content fall on the individual or community who can maintain block lists all can override or can opt in or out of. In a dictatorship or centralized technology however the responsibility falls to a central entity that removes all choice from you and even removes the ability to review the code they expect you to agree to run. Almost like making people sign legal agreements without reading them. By design a dictator implies they can and will always make better choices than anyone else. Dictators by design must be -perfect- to evade the due criticism for taking away free choice. In a world run by software the method of governance for that software is of a similar level of importance as the governance of our countries.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - dotancohen 5y ago
      > the responsibility to filter and ignore bad content fall on the individual or community. The individual and the community is exceptionally bad at this type of thing. Government may be as well, though.
      - Kbelicius 5y ago
        Are you saying that everybody is or are you leaving out corporations because you thing that corporations are good at it?
- lucb1e 5y ago
  Which government do you mean, or for what purpose? The examples I can think of are: - Covid apps, which makes sense because you can't quite do contact tracing using a website and people would trust some corporation less than a government. They're completely optional and it's temporary. The download count is less than a third of the population where I live (and I got it on both of my mobile devices so... extrapolate from there). - Germany uses a proprietary app that requires Google/Apple services as replacement for emergency broadcasts. (In NL this is also being moved to mobile, but using broadcast SMS so not a special app.) Not sure if there are any official goals in terms of install rate, but nobody expects near 100% and it's not compulsory in any way. I'm honestly not quite sure what their goal is because I'd guess the install rate so far is a few percent and it's not being promoted at all. A lot has to be done digitally, ask any grandma in the Netherlands what hoops she jumps through or has her kids do for her, but every time something new comes up, there is a lot of talk about keeping things accessible. Very few things are mobile-only (these "requires time-sensitive notifications" type apps mentioned above are the only ones I can think of), and only slightly more things don't have an offline fallback. So far, of course. I expect that we'll move more towards digital with (by 2050) a few help stations for the people stuck in the 2010s, but (de facto) compulsory closed source software that needs to be running on a body-worn device? Given the amount of discussion already surrounding the optional open source covid apps... I don't see that happening too soon in democratic countries.
  - rkk3 5y ago
    > Covid apps [...] They're completely optional and it's temporary If wanting to enter a local business is "optional" and as the saying goes nothing is quite so permanent as a temporary government program.
    - Nextgrid 5y ago
      Most Covid certificates can be printed or accessed via a web browser - just screenshot/save that and you're good to go. I did this in the UK though I believe I've only ever had to use it once.
    - lucb1e 5y ago
sizzle 5y ago
This is why I will use iOS, all my location services for apps are set to “while using the app” and I can uncheck precise location or outright block locations on a per app basis. Never going back to android!
- ffpip 5y ago
  > Never going back to android! Android has every feature you mentioned too - https://proandroiddev.com/android-12-privacy-changes-for-location-55ffd8c016fd https://proandroiddev.com/android-12-privacy-changes-for-loc...
  - sizzle 5y ago
    iOS led the way on these privacy features if I recall someone correct me if I’m wrong, Android implemented them after apple forced the industry to expect a focus on privacy. Why would google be incentivized to collect less data of their users that can be monetized and profile them if no laws compelled them? It’s their default mode of operation and I’ve been a hardcore android user since I laid my hands on an android G1, through G2 and then onto the Nexus and Pixel “vanilla” android lines. I feel like privacy on Android can be summed up as “no we wouldn’t spy on you! Trust us, wink wink. Oh hey, we turned on location tracking across all your google accounts and web activity, and maps, and gmail, and drive, and search… yeah it’s to improve your product experience, yeah… BTW you must agree to these terms to save places in google maps!”
    - AnonCoward4 5y ago
      > iOS led the way on these privacy features if I recall someone correct me if I’m wrong, Android implemented them after apple forced the industry to expect a focus on privacy. At least iOS implemented the user facing interface first and AOSP/Google might have only implemented it because iOS did (we cannot know, but I wouldn't be surprised). However technically the API was already there and was usable by external permission managers long before iOS exposed users to it. > Why would google be incentivized to collect less data of their users that can be monetized and profile them if no laws compelled them? NOBUS. It also applies here, since Google's Services are installed in /system it has access to everything and other apps have to go through the hoops that Google can avoid. > I feel like privacy on Android can be summed up as “no we wouldn’t spy on you! Trust us, wink wink. Oh hey, we turned on location tracking across all your google accounts and web activity, and maps, and gmail, and drive, and search… yeah it’s to improve your product experience, yeah… BTW you must agree to these terms to save places in google maps!” It's not a big secret that Google is collecting data. Don't use Google products if you can help it. However what happens on Android with Google Apps preinstalled (basically every Stock experience) while using other apps/sites is more of a problem in my opinion.
rustybolt 5y ago
Well, that's a good goal, but even the government expects you to install their apps nowadays. It's impossible to live without a recent smartphone with enough free space.
buro9 5y ago
Plus if you use DNS ad-blocking you'll find a fair number of apps will not work due to the excessive tracking implemented in a blocking way with key functionality. The websites though, they work perfectly. What tracking is on them is implemented in a non-blocking way. I've ditched most apps for shortcuts to Firefox which also has no script installed
Hard_Space 5y ago
Good advice. I recently deleted a lot of apps from my iPhone when I realized that I only used some of them once a year (or less). If they're just local frameworks for account-based services such as AirBnB, keeping the app is like keeping the web page open for 12-18 months in case you need it again soon. Reinstall when needed, log in, and then delete when the need has gone.
fsflover 5y ago
> Yet another reminder to install as few apps as possible. No, this is a reminder to not use proprietary software, which doesn't respect users' freedom.

jimbob45 5y ago

My personal strategy is to keep an old phone around that I load up with apps I need. When I’m not using it (which is 99% of the time), it stays powered off (usually with an empty battery) in my closet.

amelius 5y ago

Except there is an ever-increasing pressure to install more apps. Even governments partake in this. Soon you can't have a normal life without installing at least a dozen of apps.

kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 5y ago
> Soon you can't have a normal life without installing at least a dozen of apps. To whom it may concern, Please unsubscribe me from your dystopian hellscape. Very truly yours, GonnaThrowAwayMySmartPhoneAndLiveOffGrid
- ISL 5y ago
  Please submit your property taxes through our convenient online filing portal.
  - ghaff 5y ago
    You almost certainly have the right to mail a paper check for most things. While I tend to have my bank do it for most things it’s absolutely an option in general. I certainly still use check for a lot of purposes in the US.
    - letitbeirie 5y ago
      Each month my ISP sends me a flyer telling me how much easier it would be to pay them if I let them auto-draft their fee out of my bank account. Each month I tell them what I think of that idea by sending them another check.
      - weq 5y ago
        Ahahaha me to. im not living on the grid, yet i havnt installed a single covid app yet. I do live like i am off the grid, while on it. Have my cake, and eat it to. Ahh the churn of Investor money. HN likes to have go's at crypto about "Adding value" but im yet to see a long term sustainable unicorn that comes out of its bloodthirsty VC flush stage to long term sustainable numbers, and product... HINT: Users will GET RID of YOUR PLATFORM as soon as humanly possible the moment you flick the switch and try and make a profit. ATTENTION is CHEAP! there are a thousand other unicorns and VCs looking for pie. You will go out of fashion, you will be replaced.
  - martneumann 5y ago
    Just because many privately owned apps are bad, does not mean the concept of apps is bad. If the government in theory can offer a "secure" open source channel for me to do my business with them without having to go there or pay for postage, why not use it? And why do we still believe that paper docs are secure? Someone needs to look at them and can just as easily "lose" them, too.
    - everdrive 5y ago
      The problem here is the smartphone ecosystem. If there were merely an "app standard" which I could run even if I did not have a Google or Apple device, that would be fine. But, requiring that I give at least some information to Apple, or even more information to Google in order to use a government service is what I take issue with. The bigger problem is that this issue is almost entirely artificial. Most apps are merely glorified web pages. Functionally, they could (in most cases) just be websites and function exactly as well.
lrvick 5y ago
I run a tech company and have not used any proprietary apps in several years, not had a cell carrier in well over a year, and a few months ago I ditched my phone entirely. These incremental weaning steps taught me you can live in the modern world comfortably without subscribing to app culture. Restaurants dig out paper menus for me, banks find alternative ways to verify me, etc. There always exists a sometimes undocumented path to engage with most entities with a webapp and without a cell phone carrier, though I do have a VoIP number which I can use from a laptop or DECT phones. Life without a smartphone and apps works pretty much just like it did in the 90s . The privacy and mental health wins are huge. My mind feels like mine again.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
  What do you use for phone calls if you don’t have a mobile phone?
  - dangerboysteve 5y ago
    the previous person said they used a VOIP service so a SIP VOIP client on their Mac. But even so, many people choose not to make phone calls nowadays.
  - xeromal 5y ago
    He said he uses Voip. Presumably, he opens up his laptop and makes a call from a cafe if he needs to.
    - lrvick 5y ago
      Or from any nearby hotel phone or from a DECT phone if I am at home.
- smcin 5y ago
  How do you travel anywhere, book a flight, hotel or rental car, navigate anywhere, or even get a list of local restaurants? (and when you say 'no proprietary apps', does that include Google Maps?)
rodgerd 5y ago
It's always funny reading the different discussions kicked off by articles here; the privacy/confidentiality-oriented folks are in here talking about the relentless pressure to install apps which rummage around your private life inappropriately. On the threads kicked off by someone whining about Apple protecting customer privacy from app authors, people rage that Apple should have no power to stop people loading terrible applications just like this.
- lrvick 5y ago
  I am one of those that share both sentiments so I am happy to explain. It is better all software be democratized or decentralized which makes the responsibility to filter and ignore bad content fall on the individual or community who can maintain block lists all can override or can opt in or out of. In a dictatorship or centralized technology however the responsibility falls to a central entity that removes all choice from you and even removes the ability to review the code they expect you to agree to run. Almost like making people sign legal agreements without reading them. By design a dictator implies they can and will always make better choices than anyone else. Dictators by design must be -perfect- to evade the due criticism for taking away free choice. In a world run by software the method of governance for that software is of a similar level of importance as the governance of our countries.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - dotancohen 5y ago
    > the responsibility to filter and ignore bad content fall on the individual or community. The individual and the community is exceptionally bad at this type of thing. Government may be as well, though.
    - Kbelicius 5y ago
      Are you saying that everybody is or are you leaving out corporations because you thing that corporations are good at it?
lucb1e 5y ago
Which government do you mean, or for what purpose? The examples I can think of are: - Covid apps, which makes sense because you can't quite do contact tracing using a website and people would trust some corporation less than a government. They're completely optional and it's temporary. The download count is less than a third of the population where I live (and I got it on both of my mobile devices so... extrapolate from there). - Germany uses a proprietary app that requires Google/Apple services as replacement for emergency broadcasts. (In NL this is also being moved to mobile, but using broadcast SMS so not a special app.) Not sure if there are any official goals in terms of install rate, but nobody expects near 100% and it's not compulsory in any way. I'm honestly not quite sure what their goal is because I'd guess the install rate so far is a few percent and it's not being promoted at all. A lot has to be done digitally, ask any grandma in the Netherlands what hoops she jumps through or has her kids do for her, but every time something new comes up, there is a lot of talk about keeping things accessible. Very few things are mobile-only (these "requires time-sensitive notifications" type apps mentioned above are the only ones I can think of), and only slightly more things don't have an offline fallback. So far, of course. I expect that we'll move more towards digital with (by 2050) a few help stations for the people stuck in the 2010s, but (de facto) compulsory closed source software that needs to be running on a body-worn device? Given the amount of discussion already surrounding the optional open source covid apps... I don't see that happening too soon in democratic countries.
- rkk3 5y ago
  > Covid apps [...] They're completely optional and it's temporary If wanting to enter a local business is "optional" and as the saying goes nothing is quite so permanent as a temporary government program.
  - Nextgrid 5y ago
    Most Covid certificates can be printed or accessed via a web browser - just screenshot/save that and you're good to go. I did this in the UK though I believe I've only ever had to use it once.
  - lucb1e 5y ago

sizzle 5y ago

This is why I will use iOS, all my location services for apps are set to “while using the app” and I can uncheck precise location or outright block locations on a per app basis. Never going back to android!

ffpip 5y ago
> Never going back to android! Android has every feature you mentioned too - https://proandroiddev.com/android-12-privacy-changes-for-location-55ffd8c016fd https://proandroiddev.com/android-12-privacy-changes-for-loc...
- sizzle 5y ago
  iOS led the way on these privacy features if I recall someone correct me if I’m wrong, Android implemented them after apple forced the industry to expect a focus on privacy. Why would google be incentivized to collect less data of their users that can be monetized and profile them if no laws compelled them? It’s their default mode of operation and I’ve been a hardcore android user since I laid my hands on an android G1, through G2 and then onto the Nexus and Pixel “vanilla” android lines. I feel like privacy on Android can be summed up as “no we wouldn’t spy on you! Trust us, wink wink. Oh hey, we turned on location tracking across all your google accounts and web activity, and maps, and gmail, and drive, and search… yeah it’s to improve your product experience, yeah… BTW you must agree to these terms to save places in google maps!”
  - AnonCoward4 5y ago
    > iOS led the way on these privacy features if I recall someone correct me if I’m wrong, Android implemented them after apple forced the industry to expect a focus on privacy. At least iOS implemented the user facing interface first and AOSP/Google might have only implemented it because iOS did (we cannot know, but I wouldn't be surprised). However technically the API was already there and was usable by external permission managers long before iOS exposed users to it. > Why would google be incentivized to collect less data of their users that can be monetized and profile them if no laws compelled them? NOBUS. It also applies here, since Google's Services are installed in /system it has access to everything and other apps have to go through the hoops that Google can avoid. > I feel like privacy on Android can be summed up as “no we wouldn’t spy on you! Trust us, wink wink. Oh hey, we turned on location tracking across all your google accounts and web activity, and maps, and gmail, and drive, and search… yeah it’s to improve your product experience, yeah… BTW you must agree to these terms to save places in google maps!” It's not a big secret that Google is collecting data. Don't use Google products if you can help it. However what happens on Android with Google Apps preinstalled (basically every Stock experience) while using other apps/sites is more of a problem in my opinion.

rustybolt 5y ago

Well, that's a good goal, but even the government expects you to install their apps nowadays. It's impossible to live without a recent smartphone with enough free space.

buro9 5y ago

Plus if you use DNS ad-blocking you'll find a fair number of apps will not work due to the excessive tracking implemented in a blocking way with key functionality. The websites though, they work perfectly. What tracking is on them is implemented in a non-blocking way. I've ditched most apps for shortcuts to Firefox which also has no script installed

Hard_Space 5y ago

Good advice. I recently deleted a lot of apps from my iPhone when I realized that I only used some of them once a year (or less). If they're just local frameworks for account-based services such as AirBnB, keeping the app is like keeping the web page open for 12-18 months in case you need it again soon. Reinstall when needed, log in, and then delete when the need has gone.

fsflover 5y ago

> Yet another reminder to install as few apps as possible. No, this is a reminder to not use proprietary software, which doesn't respect users' freedom.