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Conflating anything related to crypto as a scam is just lazy and anti-intellectual. This is one of HN's weakest traits IMO. I find great value in following topi

Conflating anything related to crypto as a scam is just lazy and anti-intellectual. This is one of HN's weakest traits IMO. I find great value in following topics and threads on HN, but it's unrelenting hate for crypto and crypto adjacent topics is unfounded.

NelsonMinar 5y ago
We are literally discussing a company being found by the SEC to have sold an investment asset without appropriate disclosure and that asset being closed to American investors. This is not the example to make your case with.
- ryanSrich 5y ago
  Why not? I could find countless SEC violations that are far worse than this from banking institutions that I guarantee you use on a weekly or monthly basis. Are those scams?
  - NelsonMinar 5y ago
    Yes, yes they often are. But I think you'll be hard-pressed to find many examples of legitimate banks having their primary customer offering being declared illegal and forced to stop operation immediately.
    - omeze 5y ago
      Erm, from recent memory: Wells Fargo (3rd largest US bank) had a nice 185 million fine for checking account fraud… https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wells_Fargo_account_fraud_scandal https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wells_Fargo_account_fraud_sc... Not saying this justifies BlockFi’s behavior but the incentives for any bank is there!
      - NelsonMinar 5y ago
        Yes, that was a fraud. I was personally a victim of it. I will never do business with Wells Fargo again in my lifetime. That doesn't mean I think all banks are fraudulent. In particular I appreciate that there was a regulatory mechanism in place to protect consumers from that fraud.
  - sailfast 5y ago
    FWIW, no. After the savings and loan crisis a lot of that went away. Especially not typically fraudulent are the APY yield savings accounts whose deposits are insured. Also I doubt you could find countless violations outside of (maybe?) insider trading based on MNPI at these institutions, but if you know of them you should report them - whistleblowers can make a lot of money!!
jiggawatts 5y ago
https://youtu.be/YQ_xWvX1n9g https://youtu.be/YQ_xWvX1n9g A rant over two hours long about the endless grift and unfettered scamming that is crypto. Two hours, and it doesn’t even cover all of it.
almost 5y ago
Boy are we going to look stupid when a non-scam crypto use comes out! Total egg on our collective faces! One of these days! I mean obviously not today, but soon, right?
- ryanSrich 5y ago
  How is me taking some bitcoin and purchasing something online instantly with near zero fees a scam? Please explain with precise language how that is a scam. That's a use case. Now tell me how it's a scam.
  - bluecalm 5y ago
    Even the most blatant scams, literal pyramids called MLMs often have some useful product to muddy the waters. I mean you can after all but that toothpaste and shampoo from Amway and use it!
    - ryanSrich 5y ago
      Yes. The PC parts on bought on Newegg.com with Bitcoin sure are contributing to a crypto scam. How could I have not seen this?
      - bluecalm 5y ago
        They do because you give legitimacy to the scheme most people will lose money in once it collapses.
  - xmonkee 5y ago
    Tell me what you're buying.
    - ryanSrich 5y ago
      My most recent PC build was created entirely from parts bought on Newegg.com. Newegg accepts bitcoin as payment. We're not in 2009 anymore where people only buy drugs with Bitcoin.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
jgalt212 5y ago
In general I agree, but there's just so much damn smoke.
- BLKNSLVR 5y ago
  How much smoke billows off Wall Street though? Didn't that particular garbage fire get re-lit surprisingly soon after the GFC? I'm somewhat pro-crypto for it's anti-establishment roots (which are barely visible these days) and so I find it interesting that the standard it's held to is much higher than that for existing 'finance' - for which the bar is incredibly low, seemingly for the only reason that society has developed a callous against all that (g)rubbing.
  - floodyberry- 5y ago
    "finance is corrupt" doesn't work in favor of crypto because insofar as crypto addresses the issue, it only allows finance to be even _more_ corrupt
    - BLKNSLVR 5y ago
      I genuinely think cryptocurrency makes transparent what 'finance' (and the powers attached to it) would prefer remain opaque.
      - floodyberry- 5y ago
        The only thing that will be transparent with zero knowledge blockchains are the buggy contracts
  - notahacker 5y ago
    > I find it interesting that the standard it's held to is much higher than that for existing 'finance' It isn't though. It's has all the worst aspects of Wall Street, more wolves and a few unique problems, without the redeeming feature of it facilitating massive amounts of real world activity, and you'll still find more people on here defending even crypto's most blatant scams than you'll find arguing that securitising subprime mortgages is the future of homebuying but just had a few teething problems.
Tarsul 5y ago
you're right but what I find even more jarring in crypto-threads is that usually the only argument (or at least the most prolific one) from the pro-crypto side is that the argument of the anti-crypto side is off-based. But that is not an argument pro-crypto that's at most an argument that's crypto-neutral. But maybe that's enough for the pro-crypto crowd because neutrality means that the show goes on. Nevertheless, it's seldom good enough for great discussions.
- ryanSrich 5y ago
  Being pro-crypto is like being pro-internet or pro-money. It doesn't make sense to say that. If I use Bitcoin to buy something legally online is that a scam? Am I getting scammed? Is the other person getting scammed? I just don't understand why people ignore the fact that crypto is a utility. Sure, you can hate a company that scams users into thinking their crypto token has some intrinsic value and then rug pulls a month later. I'm unsure how that's an indictment of the crypto as a technology. That's like hating email because people use it to execute phishing scams.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - clpm4j 5y ago
    Genuinely curious, if you're based in the US, why do you choose to spend your BTC as money? Why not spend your USD instead (for the computer parts that you mentioned in another comment)?
schmichael 5y ago
> it's unrelenting hate for crypto and crypto adjacent topics is unfounded. How is it unfounded? The carbon and ewaste problems are well documented. Any fixes for that (eg Proof of Stake) have either compromised Bitcoin's original focus on decentralization, continually delayed release, or both. Over a decade after Bitcoin's launch few use cases have emerged and none of them have proven durable. The ICO craze came and went. DeFi is still muddling along with ever more convoluted cryptoshadows of regulated fiat finance. NFTs are all the rage but currently about as intellectually stimulating as baseball cards. Hacks and scams abound far beyond any other industry. Both "sides" of the crypto debate are welcome to share their opinions on HN. The constant stream of blockchain links on HN makes me think there are plenty of at least crypto-curious folks around. I'm not sure why the pro side feels so attacked. Share your thoughts. Share your use cases. Advance the field. Prove us on the other side wrong.
- ryanSrich 5y ago
  > How is it unfounded? The carbon and ewaste problems are well documented. Without a benchmark this means nothing. Just because a new technology contributes to ewaste we should just ignore it and bury it? No use in trying to fix it right? Just kill the technology because it contributes to ewaste. That doesn't make any sense. Not to mention the majority of the uproar around Crypto being a danger to the environment is completely overblown https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/20/bitcoin-mining-environmental-impact-new-study.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/20/bitcoin-mining-environmental... > Over a decade after Bitcoin's launch few use cases have emerged and none of them have proven durable Durable in what sense? I can take some Bitcoin right now and purchase almost anything I want. Seems like that money use case is pretty durable to me. > The ICO craze came and went. DeFi is still muddling along with ever more convoluted cryptoshadows of regulated fiat finance. NFTs are all the rage but currently about as intellectually stimulating as baseball cards. Hacks and scams abound far beyond any other industry. You're just conflating scams with crypto as a technology. If you can't find merit in cryptocurrency while at the same time thinking NFTs are mostly a scam you lack imagination. I'll be the first one to admit I think the following are all mostly scams, useless, or only serve to create bag holders: - NFTs - DAOs - ICOs (not really a thing anymore) That doesn't deter me one bit from thinking that Bitcoin, ETH, and a handful of layer 1s are genuinely useful in creating technology to digitize money and decentralize finance. How long is it going to take? Idk. 10 years seems like not enough time. Idk why people are complaining about the lack of use cases. Something as ground breaking as disrupting the banking system is going to be a multi-decade long endeavour. Scams will come and go. That seems like a natural progression.

NelsonMinar 5y ago

We are literally discussing a company being found by the SEC to have sold an investment asset without appropriate disclosure and that asset being closed to American investors. This is not the example to make your case with.

ryanSrich 5y ago
Why not? I could find countless SEC violations that are far worse than this from banking institutions that I guarantee you use on a weekly or monthly basis. Are those scams?
- NelsonMinar 5y ago
  Yes, yes they often are. But I think you'll be hard-pressed to find many examples of legitimate banks having their primary customer offering being declared illegal and forced to stop operation immediately.
  - omeze 5y ago
    Erm, from recent memory: Wells Fargo (3rd largest US bank) had a nice 185 million fine for checking account fraud… https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wells_Fargo_account_fraud_scandal https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wells_Fargo_account_fraud_sc... Not saying this justifies BlockFi’s behavior but the incentives for any bank is there!
    - NelsonMinar 5y ago
      Yes, that was a fraud. I was personally a victim of it. I will never do business with Wells Fargo again in my lifetime. That doesn't mean I think all banks are fraudulent. In particular I appreciate that there was a regulatory mechanism in place to protect consumers from that fraud.
- sailfast 5y ago
  FWIW, no. After the savings and loan crisis a lot of that went away. Especially not typically fraudulent are the APY yield savings accounts whose deposits are insured. Also I doubt you could find countless violations outside of (maybe?) insider trading based on MNPI at these institutions, but if you know of them you should report them - whistleblowers can make a lot of money!!

jiggawatts 5y ago

https://youtu.be/YQ_xWvX1n9g https://youtu.be/YQ_xWvX1n9g A rant over two hours long about the endless grift and unfettered scamming that is crypto. Two hours, and it doesn’t even cover all of it.

almost 5y ago

Boy are we going to look stupid when a non-scam crypto use comes out! Total egg on our collective faces! One of these days! I mean obviously not today, but soon, right?

ryanSrich 5y ago
How is me taking some bitcoin and purchasing something online instantly with near zero fees a scam? Please explain with precise language how that is a scam. That's a use case. Now tell me how it's a scam.
- bluecalm 5y ago
  Even the most blatant scams, literal pyramids called MLMs often have some useful product to muddy the waters. I mean you can after all but that toothpaste and shampoo from Amway and use it!
  - ryanSrich 5y ago
    Yes. The PC parts on bought on Newegg.com with Bitcoin sure are contributing to a crypto scam. How could I have not seen this?
    - bluecalm 5y ago
      They do because you give legitimacy to the scheme most people will lose money in once it collapses.
- xmonkee 5y ago
  Tell me what you're buying.
  - ryanSrich 5y ago
    My most recent PC build was created entirely from parts bought on Newegg.com. Newegg accepts bitcoin as payment. We're not in 2009 anymore where people only buy drugs with Bitcoin.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

jgalt212 5y ago

In general I agree, but there's just so much damn smoke.

BLKNSLVR 5y ago
How much smoke billows off Wall Street though? Didn't that particular garbage fire get re-lit surprisingly soon after the GFC? I'm somewhat pro-crypto for it's anti-establishment roots (which are barely visible these days) and so I find it interesting that the standard it's held to is much higher than that for existing 'finance' - for which the bar is incredibly low, seemingly for the only reason that society has developed a callous against all that (g)rubbing.
- floodyberry- 5y ago
  "finance is corrupt" doesn't work in favor of crypto because insofar as crypto addresses the issue, it only allows finance to be even _more_ corrupt
  - BLKNSLVR 5y ago
    I genuinely think cryptocurrency makes transparent what 'finance' (and the powers attached to it) would prefer remain opaque.
    - floodyberry- 5y ago
      The only thing that will be transparent with zero knowledge blockchains are the buggy contracts
- notahacker 5y ago
  > I find it interesting that the standard it's held to is much higher than that for existing 'finance' It isn't though. It's has all the worst aspects of Wall Street, more wolves and a few unique problems, without the redeeming feature of it facilitating massive amounts of real world activity, and you'll still find more people on here defending even crypto's most blatant scams than you'll find arguing that securitising subprime mortgages is the future of homebuying but just had a few teething problems.

Tarsul 5y ago

you're right but what I find even more jarring in crypto-threads is that usually the only argument (or at least the most prolific one) from the pro-crypto side is that the argument of the anti-crypto side is off-based. But that is not an argument pro-crypto that's at most an argument that's crypto-neutral. But maybe that's enough for the pro-crypto crowd because neutrality means that the show goes on. Nevertheless, it's seldom good enough for great discussions.

ryanSrich 5y ago
Being pro-crypto is like being pro-internet or pro-money. It doesn't make sense to say that. If I use Bitcoin to buy something legally online is that a scam? Am I getting scammed? Is the other person getting scammed? I just don't understand why people ignore the fact that crypto is a utility. Sure, you can hate a company that scams users into thinking their crypto token has some intrinsic value and then rug pulls a month later. I'm unsure how that's an indictment of the crypto as a technology. That's like hating email because people use it to execute phishing scams.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- clpm4j 5y ago
  Genuinely curious, if you're based in the US, why do you choose to spend your BTC as money? Why not spend your USD instead (for the computer parts that you mentioned in another comment)?

schmichael 5y ago

> it's unrelenting hate for crypto and crypto adjacent topics is unfounded. How is it unfounded? The carbon and ewaste problems are well documented. Any fixes for that (eg Proof of Stake) have either compromised Bitcoin's original focus on decentralization, continually delayed release, or both. Over a decade after Bitcoin's launch few use cases have emerged and none of them have proven durable. The ICO craze came and went. DeFi is still muddling along with ever more convoluted cryptoshadows of regulated fiat finance. NFTs are all the rage but currently about as intellectually stimulating as baseball cards. Hacks and scams abound far beyond any other industry. Both "sides" of the crypto debate are welcome to share their opinions on HN. The constant stream of blockchain links on HN makes me think there are plenty of at least crypto-curious folks around. I'm not sure why the pro side feels so attacked. Share your thoughts. Share your use cases. Advance the field. Prove us on the other side wrong.

ryanSrich 5y ago
> How is it unfounded? The carbon and ewaste problems are well documented. Without a benchmark this means nothing. Just because a new technology contributes to ewaste we should just ignore it and bury it? No use in trying to fix it right? Just kill the technology because it contributes to ewaste. That doesn't make any sense. Not to mention the majority of the uproar around Crypto being a danger to the environment is completely overblown https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/20/bitcoin-mining-environmental-impact-new-study.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/20/bitcoin-mining-environmental... > Over a decade after Bitcoin's launch few use cases have emerged and none of them have proven durable Durable in what sense? I can take some Bitcoin right now and purchase almost anything I want. Seems like that money use case is pretty durable to me. > The ICO craze came and went. DeFi is still muddling along with ever more convoluted cryptoshadows of regulated fiat finance. NFTs are all the rage but currently about as intellectually stimulating as baseball cards. Hacks and scams abound far beyond any other industry. You're just conflating scams with crypto as a technology. If you can't find merit in cryptocurrency while at the same time thinking NFTs are mostly a scam you lack imagination. I'll be the first one to admit I think the following are all mostly scams, useless, or only serve to create bag holders: - NFTs - DAOs - ICOs (not really a thing anymore) That doesn't deter me one bit from thinking that Bitcoin, ETH, and a handful of layer 1s are genuinely useful in creating technology to digitize money and decentralize finance. How long is it going to take? Idk. 10 years seems like not enough time. Idk why people are complaining about the lack of use cases. Something as ground breaking as disrupting the banking system is going to be a multi-decade long endeavour. Scams will come and go. That seems like a natural progression.