6 ms·

As the article points out, access is a huge issue. Also a culture that criminalizes rather than treats. Guess we can thank Reagan for that omnibus budget reconc

As the article points out, access is a huge issue. Also a culture that criminalizes rather than treats. Guess we can thank Reagan for that omnibus budget reconciliation that gutted the MHSA

MWParkerson 5y ago
[flagged]
- Loughla 5y ago
  This is always missing from the arguments. Sure mental health treatment and agencies are notoriously underfunded, understaffed, and underpaid. But Mostly we have a society that views those with mental health struggles as 'less than' and not fully adults, because they can't support themselves in some fashion and contribute to the GDP (from a very 10,000 foot view). We can pay for support all we want, until society at large stops viewing these people as burdens, it's not going to really fix anything.
  - s1artibartfast 5y ago
    To to be fair, a big part of the solution is recognizing these people as burdens, and deciding who will carry that burden and how. The idea that some of these people will ever be self sufficient is equally a challenge.
  - lazide 5y ago
    Ignoring that many folks in this place are not only burdens, but severely incapable of handling themselves in a way normally required for adults doesn't help the situation either. It's a sliding scale, and one that people can show up on at different points on every single day. Ignoring that a specific individual can and or is spending all or most of it in a place that would have them dead in a week without external help, or injuring innocent bystanders, just makes the problem worse. With medication and lack of compliance, some very bad cases could get from perfectly functional to that state in a day or less.
- at_a_remove 5y ago
  Do we have some corresponding examples of how communist societies treated those people who were not useful workers? I am willing to bet that those examples aren't exactly brimming with fellowship and charity towards those unfortunate comrades.
  - mindslight 5y ago
    Yes yes, let's argue which is more abstractly authoritarian - "capitalism" xor "communism" - rather than focusing on the substance of the point OP was making. Or better yet, just get back to work.
    - at_a_remove 5y ago
      Mostly, I am pretty tired of the "I got a really small serving of fries today; capitalism has failed." commentary. I see it everywhere: something negative happens, someone has to tie it into capitalism. Now, I am well aware of the fallacy of the excluded middle, but let's not kid ourselves that the "capitalism has failed" crew are anything but collectivists kvetching. I bring it up because a younger generation has little to no idea of various atrocities and grinding misery that also happened under various collectivist -isms, somewhere between ignorance and willful blindness. Maybe capitalism isn't great, but dang, some of the replacements turned out to be a lot worse. It'd be nice if that context were provided instead of just another jibe at capitalism, which is one field of attempted solutions to the vast and intricate problem of resource management.
      - grapescheesee 5y ago
        "Maybe capitalism isn't great, but dang, some of the replacements turned out to be a lot worse." Well in terms of history we have not had a very long time for this experiment to play out. It is very possible that the construction of a system which allows both the generation of several billions of dollars also causes far greater harm than some of the other systems which were too heavy on the gas so to speak. If history is a guide, all forms of a system fall due to avarice, vanity, or an external system which is operating 'better' at the current time.
BuyMyBitcoins 5y ago
>”Guess we can thank Reagan for that omnibus budget reconciliation that gutted the MHSA” I keep hearing this, but if this move was such an obviously bad thing why hasn’t it been undone yet? I know the local chapter of the ACLU screams bloody murder whenever the city tries to institutionalize some of the local homeless population. Even if there was substantial bipartisan support for undoing what Regan changed in the 80’s, it seems like a plethora of other challenges stops it. In which case, it seems unproductive to keep blaming Reagan.
- meragrin_ 5y ago
  MHSA was signed in 1980. The next year it was "gutted". You can't really say Reagan changed it, but rather prevented any potential change.
legitster 5y ago
The MHSA was widely unpopular before it was gutted. Public perception of mental health facilities were dire in that era. Think of how influential One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest was.
- StevePerkins 5y ago
  Perceptions are not exactly glowing in 2022. Currently, the popular public face of involuntary custodianship is Britney Spears, and even I'll acknowledge that the justice system's relationship to mental health seems catastrophically broken. I would honestly rather be sent to prison than an institution in most situations, for a shorter term sentence situation.
slfnflctd 5y ago
The fact that anyone who has sought mental health treatment can be at a disadvantage in civil or criminal cases as a result is abhorrent. There should be much more stringent limits on the availability of this kind of information in the discovery process.

As the article points out, access is a huge issue. Also a culture that criminalizes rather than treats. Guess we can thank Reagan for that omnibus budget reconciliation that gutted the MHSA

MWParkerson 5y ago

[flagged]

Loughla 5y ago
This is always missing from the arguments. Sure mental health treatment and agencies are notoriously underfunded, understaffed, and underpaid. But Mostly we have a society that views those with mental health struggles as 'less than' and not fully adults, because they can't support themselves in some fashion and contribute to the GDP (from a very 10,000 foot view). We can pay for support all we want, until society at large stops viewing these people as burdens, it's not going to really fix anything.
- s1artibartfast 5y ago
  To to be fair, a big part of the solution is recognizing these people as burdens, and deciding who will carry that burden and how. The idea that some of these people will ever be self sufficient is equally a challenge.
- lazide 5y ago
  Ignoring that many folks in this place are not only burdens, but severely incapable of handling themselves in a way normally required for adults doesn't help the situation either. It's a sliding scale, and one that people can show up on at different points on every single day. Ignoring that a specific individual can and or is spending all or most of it in a place that would have them dead in a week without external help, or injuring innocent bystanders, just makes the problem worse. With medication and lack of compliance, some very bad cases could get from perfectly functional to that state in a day or less.
at_a_remove 5y ago
Do we have some corresponding examples of how communist societies treated those people who were not useful workers? I am willing to bet that those examples aren't exactly brimming with fellowship and charity towards those unfortunate comrades.
- mindslight 5y ago
  Yes yes, let's argue which is more abstractly authoritarian - "capitalism" xor "communism" - rather than focusing on the substance of the point OP was making. Or better yet, just get back to work.
  - at_a_remove 5y ago
    Mostly, I am pretty tired of the "I got a really small serving of fries today; capitalism has failed." commentary. I see it everywhere: something negative happens, someone has to tie it into capitalism. Now, I am well aware of the fallacy of the excluded middle, but let's not kid ourselves that the "capitalism has failed" crew are anything but collectivists kvetching. I bring it up because a younger generation has little to no idea of various atrocities and grinding misery that also happened under various collectivist -isms, somewhere between ignorance and willful blindness. Maybe capitalism isn't great, but dang, some of the replacements turned out to be a lot worse. It'd be nice if that context were provided instead of just another jibe at capitalism, which is one field of attempted solutions to the vast and intricate problem of resource management.
    - grapescheesee 5y ago
      "Maybe capitalism isn't great, but dang, some of the replacements turned out to be a lot worse." Well in terms of history we have not had a very long time for this experiment to play out. It is very possible that the construction of a system which allows both the generation of several billions of dollars also causes far greater harm than some of the other systems which were too heavy on the gas so to speak. If history is a guide, all forms of a system fall due to avarice, vanity, or an external system which is operating 'better' at the current time.

BuyMyBitcoins 5y ago

>”Guess we can thank Reagan for that omnibus budget reconciliation that gutted the MHSA” I keep hearing this, but if this move was such an obviously bad thing why hasn’t it been undone yet? I know the local chapter of the ACLU screams bloody murder whenever the city tries to institutionalize some of the local homeless population. Even if there was substantial bipartisan support for undoing what Regan changed in the 80’s, it seems like a plethora of other challenges stops it. In which case, it seems unproductive to keep blaming Reagan.

meragrin_ 5y ago
MHSA was signed in 1980. The next year it was "gutted". You can't really say Reagan changed it, but rather prevented any potential change.

legitster 5y ago

The MHSA was widely unpopular before it was gutted. Public perception of mental health facilities were dire in that era. Think of how influential One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest was.

StevePerkins 5y ago
Perceptions are not exactly glowing in 2022. Currently, the popular public face of involuntary custodianship is Britney Spears, and even I'll acknowledge that the justice system's relationship to mental health seems catastrophically broken. I would honestly rather be sent to prison than an institution in most situations, for a shorter term sentence situation.

slfnflctd 5y ago

The fact that anyone who has sought mental health treatment can be at a disadvantage in civil or criminal cases as a result is abhorrent. There should be much more stringent limits on the availability of this kind of information in the discovery process.