17 ms·

Simula One – Linux VR Computer

77 points by lwneal 5y ago

dvngnt_ 5y ago
One thing that you have to consider is touch typing is easy when it's just home-row keys and general typing, but even doing brackets vs curly braces forces me to look down at my keyboard. Also, modifier keys are tougher. Meta is trying to solve this with tracking keyboards with either overlays that have to be re-calibrated on move or with a special Logitech keyboard. These two videos explain the issue with working in VR in more detail. Why aren't we all Programming in VR? - YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dHBC-tOnh4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dHBC-tOnh4 Using a VR Keyboard? - Immersed vs Logitech K830 vs Horizon Workrooms - YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diIA9oFI3XM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diIA9oFI3XM
zelon88 5y ago
Curious if it will run SteamVR. I've got a pretty good record of getting things working with Winetricks and after about a week I gave up on getting my Quest 2 to work on Linux. To be honest, I feel like it barely works on Windows most days. That's why i would be hesitant to put that much faith in the developers of the hardware to provide lasting support. Also, the styling of the device itself is right up my alley.
- kanetw 5y ago
  Also an important thing: our software is FOSS and our hardware/firmware will be as open as can be. So even if we can't provide support anymore for whatever reason, all the tools will be there.
- kanetw 5y ago
  We're focusing on OpenXR/Monado as our backend, but it's quite likely we'll support SteamVR as well.
threshold 5y ago
Those prices are insane. No way. My Oculus Quest 2 is performing brilliantly for the $300 I paid. In fact had I paid $2000 for the OC2 I would’ve been well satisfied. FB/Meta have put billions into software development and are likely selling the Quest units at a loss to grab marketshare before Apple introduces its take on XR. If Simula want to compete with the FOSS angle they need to get costs down, especially considering that few have expendable income because of Covid and many have been burned by fantastical kickstarters that never deliver, and this is a highly technical project we have no idea if the authors have the experience or qualifications to pull it off.
- kanetw 5y ago
  I understand your hesitation, but our specs are pretty top end. The headset itself will be comparable to a Varjo Aero in picture quality and there's a relatively beefy integrated, detachable x86 compute pack. And high-quality AR mode that's usually reserved for Varjo's >>5k units. Will we reach Varjo's level of polish? No way. But I'm confident we can get 80% of the way there at least.
  - threshold 5y ago
    That i7 compute pack should be the first thing you cut to make an affordable product. If the headset is 2-5k in the current market I think you’ll be very lucky to sell 100, but would love to be proven wrong. Get the costs down, get more funding, sell the units at a loss to build a dev community. I think you guys are making a mistake I once made, focusing on the hardware design for what is actually a software product. You’re building an Android phone, without Android.
    - kanetw 5y ago
      We have a software product--we had it for ages. The hardware doesn't exist for it. That's why we're doing this. We're not doing this lightly. Hardware design is expensive, and risky, and low margin. But we want a cultural victory, not necessarily a financial one. If that means doing it ourselves, then so we will.
      - ghotli 5y ago
        There's negativity in this thread but not any from my perspective. Thanks for stepping up and getting gear like this over the line :)
      - threshold 5y ago
        Not a thought through attitude. If it sounds like I’m on your case here it’s because I am. You aren’t even giving this product a chance at success. Expendable income for most is $400/mo. Your headset won’t sell in volume over that, especially with the current competition. But I’ll pick one off ebay when you’re done with the cultural victory?
harel 5y ago
As an aside, the video gave me reasons why I'll never put on (any) VR headset in a public place like a coffeeshop or a park. It looks like I imagine it would feel: very awkward to be that person with a VR headset in the middle of a park.
- Jemm 5y ago
  I heard similar comments when portable audio came out and people were wearing headphones. The simula headset is unfortunately styled (unless you are a nintendo fanboy) but future less striking headsets will be fine. I routinely see people wearing not too dissimilar headsets as vision aids for severe myopia and macular degeneration.
- kanetw 5y ago
  Hah, I feel that. We're approaching the Shadowrun timeline anyway; might as well add cyberdecks to the list.
- encryptluks2 5y ago
  Yeah but when it is just a pair of glasses or contacts something like this will be bad ass with AR.
  - harel 5y ago
    I'll even take retina implants happily. But not a full on helmet-contraption. Not in public anyway.
- georgewsinger 5y ago
  I feel you, but VR can still be used outside "privately" in places like backyards and urban/apt balconies. At least was more what we were thinking =]
- mncharity 5y ago
  I did this a few years ago. With googly eyes, cat ears, and a nose, people generally responded with a smile. But there wasn't a lot of attention. In coffee houses, subways and buses, meetups, etc. Some parks. Ears made from (two colors of) gaff tape. :) Nose was a monocular passthru camera, gaff taped to various headsets. Sometimes also had an MIT VR sticker, to help people with any "what flavor of wacky is this?" uncertainty. It was tethered, without raised-hand gesturing, so "just a person working on laptop". Perhaps supporting personalization might help smooth hmd adoption?
seltzered_ 5y ago
https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula "Origins: Simula is a reimplementation fork of motorcar. To read about motorcar, see Toward General Purpose 3D User Interfaces: Extending Windowing Systems to Three Dimensions"
alphachloride 5y ago
Is it purely a VR desktop window simulator, or can it play video games? (funny aside from the video ad: they didn't finish the clip showing the guy managing to take a sip from the cup with the headset on, haha.)
- kanetw 5y ago
  In standalone mode, gaming will be pretty limited. It's an Iris Xe GPU that has its mouth full pushing 5k x 2.5k pixels at 90Hz, after all. In tethered mode, totally possible.
  - 0x6c6f6c 5y ago
    To clarify: will the standalone detachable model be able to detach and tether to another computer? Or will I have to use the compute unit to use it?
    - kanetw 5y ago
      The standalone is going to be usable tethered. The compute unit will be usable as a separate device, as well.
dleslie 5y ago
Will it support EAC, and Valve's Proton?
- kanetw 5y ago
  No idea. It runs a normal Linux OS, so it should. But the compute pack's hardware on it is not intended for gaming at all, anyway. In tethered mode, I see no reason why it should interfere with the host OS.
Crazyontap 5y ago
Wow this looks like an ad for what a PC ad would have been 30 years ago. It's weird looking and maybe not there because of the bulky VR headset but I'm so excited to see where these things are heading. Hopefully within a decade we will see a much compact looking vr headset that would be not bigger than actual glasses and just the thought of having multiple monitors like this anywhere makes me so happy. I really hope they are able to reduce the size of these VR headsets and it really feels we're finally on the verge of another tech revolution.
- xialvjun 5y ago
  arpara
- michelledepeil 5y ago
  Couldn't agree more. I'm starting to believe in this paradigm and would love to see future iterations. Almost enough so to pay the initial backer tax for this model.
  - georgewsinger 5y ago
    We appreciate the compliments! The compute pack in the back of the headset is detachable (we plan to sell a VR dock for office desks to make docking it easier). But yes, this VR headset will definitely look large to future VR/AR headsets 10 years from now. We are excited to iterate its size downward over time (among other things). If you are unsure about the headsets price, we have added a "partial deposit" option to the checkout which allows you to place a $1,499 deposit to reserve a headset. This allows you to lock in a headset now for less risk, and then receive it later on when its finished (you'll have to pay another $1,499 deposit then as well). If you have any other questions or feedback, let me know.
elisharobinson 5y ago
this is really quite nice !! the HN page while working was a nice touch
- georgewsinger 5y ago
  I was curious if anyone would notice that. =]
yayr 5y ago
For me the linux desktop use case is too weak to spend so much money on a headset. Probably, the picture would change, if WebXR would be supported. This would introduce at least one widely accepted UI framework with VR scope to the platform. What can you really DO in VR here in the future? - VR videos? - VR gaming? - VR art?
- BiteCode_dev 5y ago
  That's the total opposite for me. The linux desktop is the killer feature. Why recode 30 years of a rich ecosystem when you can benefit from it now ? You can use a web browser with all your extensions, code with a real local vs code, issue git commands in a terminal, watch any video with vlc / download them with youtube-dl / torrent them, get your emails with thunderbird, in a huuuuuge screen, open all my 1000 of different chats, play on steam while voicing on discord, query a postgres db, render a scene in blender, ssh to my work server and enjoy my ebook collection using calibre. Why would I want a limited, badly supported, barely developed system?
  - yayr 5y ago
    > You can use a web browser with all your extensions Since WebXR is not supported yet, this breaks the value proposition for me currently, as all VR content delivered via browser will not yet work. As I said, once this issue is solved (I think they are working on it), I'd reconsider.
    - kanetw 5y ago
      Yeah, we're working on it. Supporting embedded XR content is a major target.
- selfhoster11 5y ago
  If it were cheaper, I'd buy one. While VR gaming has promise, even today "working in a customised Linux workspace" is a personal killer feature for me.
  - 5y ago

77 points by lwneal 5y ago

One thing that you have to consider is touch typing is easy when it's just home-row keys and general typing, but even doing brackets vs curly braces forces me to look down at my keyboard. Also, modifier keys are tougher. Meta is trying to solve this with tracking keyboards with either overlays that have to be re-calibrated on move or with a special Logitech keyboard. These two videos explain the issue with working in VR in more detail. Why aren't we all Programming in VR? - YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dHBC-tOnh4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dHBC-tOnh4 Using a VR Keyboard? - Immersed vs Logitech K830 vs Horizon Workrooms - YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diIA9oFI3XM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diIA9oFI3XM

zelon88 5y ago

Curious if it will run SteamVR. I've got a pretty good record of getting things working with Winetricks and after about a week I gave up on getting my Quest 2 to work on Linux. To be honest, I feel like it barely works on Windows most days. That's why i would be hesitant to put that much faith in the developers of the hardware to provide lasting support. Also, the styling of the device itself is right up my alley.

kanetw 5y ago
Also an important thing: our software is FOSS and our hardware/firmware will be as open as can be. So even if we can't provide support anymore for whatever reason, all the tools will be there.
kanetw 5y ago
We're focusing on OpenXR/Monado as our backend, but it's quite likely we'll support SteamVR as well.

threshold 5y ago

Those prices are insane. No way. My Oculus Quest 2 is performing brilliantly for the $300 I paid. In fact had I paid $2000 for the OC2 I would’ve been well satisfied. FB/Meta have put billions into software development and are likely selling the Quest units at a loss to grab marketshare before Apple introduces its take on XR. If Simula want to compete with the FOSS angle they need to get costs down, especially considering that few have expendable income because of Covid and many have been burned by fantastical kickstarters that never deliver, and this is a highly technical project we have no idea if the authors have the experience or qualifications to pull it off.

kanetw 5y ago
I understand your hesitation, but our specs are pretty top end. The headset itself will be comparable to a Varjo Aero in picture quality and there's a relatively beefy integrated, detachable x86 compute pack. And high-quality AR mode that's usually reserved for Varjo's >>5k units. Will we reach Varjo's level of polish? No way. But I'm confident we can get 80% of the way there at least.
- threshold 5y ago
  That i7 compute pack should be the first thing you cut to make an affordable product. If the headset is 2-5k in the current market I think you’ll be very lucky to sell 100, but would love to be proven wrong. Get the costs down, get more funding, sell the units at a loss to build a dev community. I think you guys are making a mistake I once made, focusing on the hardware design for what is actually a software product. You’re building an Android phone, without Android.
  - kanetw 5y ago
    We have a software product--we had it for ages. The hardware doesn't exist for it. That's why we're doing this. We're not doing this lightly. Hardware design is expensive, and risky, and low margin. But we want a cultural victory, not necessarily a financial one. If that means doing it ourselves, then so we will.
    - ghotli 5y ago
      There's negativity in this thread but not any from my perspective. Thanks for stepping up and getting gear like this over the line :)
    - threshold 5y ago
      Not a thought through attitude. If it sounds like I’m on your case here it’s because I am. You aren’t even giving this product a chance at success. Expendable income for most is $400/mo. Your headset won’t sell in volume over that, especially with the current competition. But I’ll pick one off ebay when you’re done with the cultural victory?

harel 5y ago

As an aside, the video gave me reasons why I'll never put on (any) VR headset in a public place like a coffeeshop or a park. It looks like I imagine it would feel: very awkward to be that person with a VR headset in the middle of a park.

Jemm 5y ago
I heard similar comments when portable audio came out and people were wearing headphones. The simula headset is unfortunately styled (unless you are a nintendo fanboy) but future less striking headsets will be fine. I routinely see people wearing not too dissimilar headsets as vision aids for severe myopia and macular degeneration.
kanetw 5y ago
Hah, I feel that. We're approaching the Shadowrun timeline anyway; might as well add cyberdecks to the list.
encryptluks2 5y ago
Yeah but when it is just a pair of glasses or contacts something like this will be bad ass with AR.
- harel 5y ago
  I'll even take retina implants happily. But not a full on helmet-contraption. Not in public anyway.
georgewsinger 5y ago
I feel you, but VR can still be used outside "privately" in places like backyards and urban/apt balconies. At least was more what we were thinking =]
mncharity 5y ago
I did this a few years ago. With googly eyes, cat ears, and a nose, people generally responded with a smile. But there wasn't a lot of attention. In coffee houses, subways and buses, meetups, etc. Some parks. Ears made from (two colors of) gaff tape. :) Nose was a monocular passthru camera, gaff taped to various headsets. Sometimes also had an MIT VR sticker, to help people with any "what flavor of wacky is this?" uncertainty. It was tethered, without raised-hand gesturing, so "just a person working on laptop". Perhaps supporting personalization might help smooth hmd adoption?

seltzered_ 5y ago

https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula "Origins: Simula is a reimplementation fork of motorcar. To read about motorcar, see Toward General Purpose 3D User Interfaces: Extending Windowing Systems to Three Dimensions"

alphachloride 5y ago

Is it purely a VR desktop window simulator, or can it play video games? (funny aside from the video ad: they didn't finish the clip showing the guy managing to take a sip from the cup with the headset on, haha.)

kanetw 5y ago
In standalone mode, gaming will be pretty limited. It's an Iris Xe GPU that has its mouth full pushing 5k x 2.5k pixels at 90Hz, after all. In tethered mode, totally possible.
- 0x6c6f6c 5y ago
  To clarify: will the standalone detachable model be able to detach and tether to another computer? Or will I have to use the compute unit to use it?
  - kanetw 5y ago
    The standalone is going to be usable tethered. The compute unit will be usable as a separate device, as well.

dleslie 5y ago

Will it support EAC, and Valve's Proton?

kanetw 5y ago
No idea. It runs a normal Linux OS, so it should. But the compute pack's hardware on it is not intended for gaming at all, anyway. In tethered mode, I see no reason why it should interfere with the host OS.

Crazyontap 5y ago

Wow this looks like an ad for what a PC ad would have been 30 years ago. It's weird looking and maybe not there because of the bulky VR headset but I'm so excited to see where these things are heading. Hopefully within a decade we will see a much compact looking vr headset that would be not bigger than actual glasses and just the thought of having multiple monitors like this anywhere makes me so happy. I really hope they are able to reduce the size of these VR headsets and it really feels we're finally on the verge of another tech revolution.

xialvjun 5y ago
arpara
michelledepeil 5y ago
Couldn't agree more. I'm starting to believe in this paradigm and would love to see future iterations. Almost enough so to pay the initial backer tax for this model.
- georgewsinger 5y ago
  We appreciate the compliments! The compute pack in the back of the headset is detachable (we plan to sell a VR dock for office desks to make docking it easier). But yes, this VR headset will definitely look large to future VR/AR headsets 10 years from now. We are excited to iterate its size downward over time (among other things). If you are unsure about the headsets price, we have added a "partial deposit" option to the checkout which allows you to place a $1,499 deposit to reserve a headset. This allows you to lock in a headset now for less risk, and then receive it later on when its finished (you'll have to pay another $1,499 deposit then as well). If you have any other questions or feedback, let me know.

elisharobinson 5y ago

this is really quite nice !! the HN page while working was a nice touch

georgewsinger 5y ago
I was curious if anyone would notice that. =]

yayr 5y ago

For me the linux desktop use case is too weak to spend so much money on a headset. Probably, the picture would change, if WebXR would be supported. This would introduce at least one widely accepted UI framework with VR scope to the platform. What can you really DO in VR here in the future? - VR videos? - VR gaming? - VR art?

BiteCode_dev 5y ago
That's the total opposite for me. The linux desktop is the killer feature. Why recode 30 years of a rich ecosystem when you can benefit from it now ? You can use a web browser with all your extensions, code with a real local vs code, issue git commands in a terminal, watch any video with vlc / download them with youtube-dl / torrent them, get your emails with thunderbird, in a huuuuuge screen, open all my 1000 of different chats, play on steam while voicing on discord, query a postgres db, render a scene in blender, ssh to my work server and enjoy my ebook collection using calibre. Why would I want a limited, badly supported, barely developed system?
- yayr 5y ago
  > You can use a web browser with all your extensions Since WebXR is not supported yet, this breaks the value proposition for me currently, as all VR content delivered via browser will not yet work. As I said, once this issue is solved (I think they are working on it), I'd reconsider.
  - kanetw 5y ago
    Yeah, we're working on it. Supporting embedded XR content is a major target.
selfhoster11 5y ago
If it were cheaper, I'd buy one. While VR gaming has promise, even today "working in a customised Linux workspace" is a personal killer feature for me.
- 5y ago