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> Advertising provides critical support for the Web The premise is flawed, IMO. I remember a time when the web was just fine without incessant advertising. If

> Advertising provides critical support for the Web The premise is flawed, IMO. I remember a time when the web was just fine without incessant advertising. If it disappeared it would still be fine. Some sites would die out, others would rise. I've said it before, but I personally would be fine with every site that relies on advertising for its existence to go away. I also think this would improve the signal:noise ratio of the web considerably.

nicce 5y ago
> I remember a time when the web was just fine without incessant advertising. That is from the time when not everyone was in the web. Now as basically everyone is here, it is the best place to affect on the minds of people.
nojs 5y ago
> I personally would be fine with every site that relies on advertising for its existence to go away That would arguably include HN, which publishes some sponsored threads for YC companies
- errantmind 5y ago
  I suppose I should have specified "paid advertising". I personally don't see self-promotion as an issue.
concinds 5y ago
Thought experiment. Remove all ads from Facebook. Now, the only way corporations can advertise on Facebook is by making Facebook posts on their normal Facebook page; people only see them if they "liked" the company's FB page. What you've done is slightly reduced huge corporations' advertising effectiveness; and absolutely killed every small internet brand. There's people starting cool clothing, food, perfume, watch brands, starting these companies from rock bottom, getting customers through online ads, and becoming millionaires. The vast majority aren't dropshipper idiots; they're legit brands, many of which eventually get acquired by a Fortune 500 corp. This isn't the 90s. Online ads are just essential to getting companies off the ground nowadays. What should people do? Mail-order magazine ads? (still ads.) Cold calling? (isn't that more intrusive than online ads?) There's other aspects too. Kill online ads and you kill a huge chunk of the social mobility that results from entrepreneurship. There's two paths to wealth nowadays: getting a great job, or starting a company. In your ideal world, the only "path" left is the same old "golden path" our parents talked about, of going to a good college, getting 1 or more degrees, and getting a highly paid career at a big corp or SV startup. For various, well-documented reasons, that system ends up excluding tons of people (many ethnic/gender minorities, people with "difficult life paths" who end up dropping out or are unemployable because of gaps in their resume, ex-felons who have paid their debt to society but aren't going to become Apple VPs anytime soon, undocumented immigrants, and many more). Entrepreneurship is an equalizer. The anti-ad kneejerk reaction often comes from an anti-bigcorp philosophy; but it would only strengthen big corps, and harm any small companies trying to compete. You'd significantly weaken one of the best mechanism we have to reduce social/wealth inequality (entrepreneurship). You have people like HVAC specialists and plumbers advertising their services on Facebook. On the contrary, I think it would be extremely sinister is just a few big corps (browser makers) could harm huge chunks of the economy and society by mortally crippling the best way entrepreneurs have of getting customers. I rarely see anti-ad people address any of these concerns. Think of the ramifications; how about every reputable news source being behind a paywall, leaving fake news sites spreading wildly? I'm sure you could come up with hundreds of other dangerous ramifications yourself.
- Jiejeing 5y ago
  > Entrepreneurship is an equalizer. Apart from some outliers I have yet to see anything close to this statement proven true. Not to mention the dubious conflating between "small entrepreneurs & brands" and online ads; my plumber is not advertising on facebook, my plumber is on a map and registry of plumbers of the area, and maybe has an associated page (on facebook, yes) so that people can find him.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- errantmind 5y ago
  All I see here is a long, unconvincing, hand-wavy response. There is nothing essential about online advertising. For small businesses, there is this thing called organic growth. Say you have a brand, then you can post actually valuable content on, say, Instagram (which would exist without ads, they have multiple ways they make money). This works for both services and products. I have seen many business grow from nothing to 'big' this way with no paid advertising. I'm not going to bother refuting your other claims, they are equally flawed.

nicce 5y ago

> I remember a time when the web was just fine without incessant advertising. That is from the time when not everyone was in the web. Now as basically everyone is here, it is the best place to affect on the minds of people.

nojs 5y ago

> I personally would be fine with every site that relies on advertising for its existence to go away That would arguably include HN, which publishes some sponsored threads for YC companies

errantmind 5y ago
I suppose I should have specified "paid advertising". I personally don't see self-promotion as an issue.

concinds 5y ago

Thought experiment. Remove all ads from Facebook. Now, the only way corporations can advertise on Facebook is by making Facebook posts on their normal Facebook page; people only see them if they "liked" the company's FB page. What you've done is slightly reduced huge corporations' advertising effectiveness; and absolutely killed every small internet brand. There's people starting cool clothing, food, perfume, watch brands, starting these companies from rock bottom, getting customers through online ads, and becoming millionaires. The vast majority aren't dropshipper idiots; they're legit brands, many of which eventually get acquired by a Fortune 500 corp. This isn't the 90s. Online ads are just essential to getting companies off the ground nowadays. What should people do? Mail-order magazine ads? (still ads.) Cold calling? (isn't that more intrusive than online ads?) There's other aspects too. Kill online ads and you kill a huge chunk of the social mobility that results from entrepreneurship. There's two paths to wealth nowadays: getting a great job, or starting a company. In your ideal world, the only "path" left is the same old "golden path" our parents talked about, of going to a good college, getting 1 or more degrees, and getting a highly paid career at a big corp or SV startup. For various, well-documented reasons, that system ends up excluding tons of people (many ethnic/gender minorities, people with "difficult life paths" who end up dropping out or are unemployable because of gaps in their resume, ex-felons who have paid their debt to society but aren't going to become Apple VPs anytime soon, undocumented immigrants, and many more). Entrepreneurship is an equalizer. The anti-ad kneejerk reaction often comes from an anti-bigcorp philosophy; but it would only strengthen big corps, and harm any small companies trying to compete. You'd significantly weaken one of the best mechanism we have to reduce social/wealth inequality (entrepreneurship). You have people like HVAC specialists and plumbers advertising their services on Facebook. On the contrary, I think it would be extremely sinister is just a few big corps (browser makers) could harm huge chunks of the economy and society by mortally crippling the best way entrepreneurs have of getting customers. I rarely see anti-ad people address any of these concerns. Think of the ramifications; how about every reputable news source being behind a paywall, leaving fake news sites spreading wildly? I'm sure you could come up with hundreds of other dangerous ramifications yourself.

Jiejeing 5y ago
> Entrepreneurship is an equalizer. Apart from some outliers I have yet to see anything close to this statement proven true. Not to mention the dubious conflating between "small entrepreneurs & brands" and online ads; my plumber is not advertising on facebook, my plumber is on a map and registry of plumbers of the area, and maybe has an associated page (on facebook, yes) so that people can find him.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
errantmind 5y ago
All I see here is a long, unconvincing, hand-wavy response. There is nothing essential about online advertising. For small businesses, there is this thing called organic growth. Say you have a brand, then you can post actually valuable content on, say, Instagram (which would exist without ads, they have multiple ways they make money). This works for both services and products. I have seen many business grow from nothing to 'big' this way with no paid advertising. I'm not going to bother refuting your other claims, they are equally flawed.