4 ms·

> While I certainly don't approve of these practices, I'm also not saying that these companies are only evil. I view that they serve a very strong need in some

by kodah 5y ago

> While I certainly don't approve of these practices, I'm also not saying that these companies are only evil. I view that they serve a very strong need in some corners of the system, like a coding bootcamp for the less fortunate. Absolutely not. I was in college for CS/CE, dropped out during an economic crisis, joined the military, and had to work my way through technician, network engineer, systems engineer, DevOps, SRE, and finally I am a very senior SWE. That was over a decade long journey and has made quite an impact on how I've lived my life. I didn't lie to get jobs or interviews, I didn't embellish. Instead I had to research what was being done with my resume, I had to work with third-party recruiters, I had to write letters to hiring managers to get interviews. The people that are the subject of this article had the privilege to go to and finish college, that is your free pass. You don't get to cheat the job market just because you think you deserve it. If you can't tell, I'm incredibly frustrated reading this post. Edit: I do feel for people who have a lack of opportunity. I was there, I lived it, I felt it. That said, it's certainly not the only emotion I connect with when reading this story.

simmanian 5y ago
Thank you for sharing and I think your opinion is certainly valid and it would create more trust if everyone shares your principles. I was just trying to convey this idea that they are there because they serve a need. If we want to imagine a world without these practices, we should probably start by tackling the system itself, not by attacking the surface level actors only.
- kodah 5y ago
  I wish the world would've been that charitable to me. Instead, had I failed I'd be a +1 on another DOD statistic. I wouldn't have even registered in turnover for most software companies. Nobody would've missed the SWE without a degree beyond my friends. There are few, if any, DEI dashboards that would've tracked a SWE without a degree or an enlisted veteran. On one hand, I hate that people seek accountability so much from individuals. I think individual decisions are so low level most of the time that it makes seeing the bigger picture very difficult, if not impossible. On the other hand, this story is the antithesis of my professional life, and the very principles that may have projected my career also did damage to my personal life because of the focus they demanded. I know what's lost and that makes reading about someone who just wanted more than what they were already given so hard to read. Edit: I do feel for people who have a lack of opportunity. I was there, I lived it, I felt it. That said, it's certainly not the only emotion I connect with when reading this story.
  - ok_dad 5y ago
    Honest question: why didn't you use the GI bill to get free college? If you were in and have the "post-9/11" bill (most veterans do if they were in the military at any point in the past 20 years) then you could get a monthly allowance and free college at many good state universities. Most universities will accept any veteran who has a GED or HS diploma, regardless of grades, as long as they take the SAT or ACT (ACT is easier, IMO) and score above the absolute minimum. Universities love the guaranteed VA money! I, for instance, paid my way through 3 years of college using the GI bill, and the monthly allowance I got paid for my apartment and food and etc. for the whole 3 years. I had to go during summers, too, to get the allowance, but I finished a whole math degree during that time. I also got medical coverage from the VA during that time, though that might have been because I'm a certain percentage disabled veteran (I am not sure if VA healthcare is included with the GI bill?). Maybe now you're all set and don't need it, but I find it alarming how many veterans never use the benefits they earned in their service.
    - kodah 5y ago
      Good question, and one I've answered here before. > why didn't you use the GI bill to get free college? I did. I went back for a semester, but the money wasn't enough in my area. I found myself working part time and going to school full time, then eventually doing both full time. The stress got to me and I dropped out again. > Most universities will accept any veteran who has a GED or HS diploma Maybe now, but this is not true as far as my experience goes. The only college that would take me at the time was a community college. I assume this is because I had dropped out mid-semester before. Some context, I was in the DEP and was selected early, so I left with about a weeks notice (This was 2009). When I applied to four year universities I was rejected fairly quickly. > I find it alarming how many veterans never use the benefits they earned in their service. Same, however, I think there's tell-tale signs of why. Loss in institutional trust is one: - The VA provides pretty abysmal care in most places with long waiting lines and subpar coverage. I, up until recently, have been missing a tooth that they extracted in-service and told me the VA would replace with an implant. They would never agree to finishing the work the Navy started. - I've also had the VA fight with me over what bills need to be covered under disability and which I needed to pay for, with them pursuing my tax return at one point (When I really needed that money.) - Proving disability with the VA was litigious. Around they time I gave up they started demanding I show up at some court in Waco, TX which was hours from where I lived. If I went to an outside doctor, I needed to have cash to cover whatever they wanted to do because the VA would frequently protest paying my medical bills - even at VA locations. Another is the lack of post-service programs. I really needed help getting my life back on track, dealing with issues in mental health, etc -- these services were either sparse or did not exist where I was at the time. In the military I was given a week long course called "Seps & TAPS". Last, and maybe not least, I was exhausted. I spent a total of a year in country and returned to civilianhood right around a year after I got back. Having to go to school full time and having to make up for what the Post 9/11 GI Bill wasn't covering wore me to the bone, along with dealing with the VA - who would always insist I skipped work to come see them.
patcon 5y ago
Saying all this with thoughtful consideration: First, I hear ya. But I don't feel he's described his colleagues well enough for me to have your convictions. I can tell that even in reading it, I'm dropping into the roles the sorta people I grew up with. And that gives me my own sense of the slippery slope. For some people there's no path. Military service (USA or Euro or whatever) is a great catch-all that many people use to braid their own bootstraps, and I'm happy you had it, but many people don't have that luxury. I'm not saying it wasn't brutal work and commitment, but access to the ability to DO hard work (with rewards instead of extraction) is often luxury. Some people need to hustle more, and that usually means being scrappy. I feel for your perspective because I've been on your side, criticizing the tactics of extended family from other cultures. It didn't go well, and I've since learned that what some families need to do to survive and succeed looks very different from what I might assume is right. I don't like it; I don't do it; I don't want it to be that way; but I can't dismiss it. Anyhow, much love
jrochkind1 5y ago
My reaction was feeling really bad for the students/apprentices/whatever they are, who seem to me clearly in a terrible situation with few options and being exploited.
908B64B197 5y ago
There's more to these "shops" than meets the eyes: frequently there's also immigration fraud happening. These "consultancies" will make sure someone can qualify for X years of "relevant experience" so they can qualify for a visa (sponsored by said shop). I wouldn’t be surprised if some people actually paid for the training and visa sponsorship. That’s of course illegal but how will they find out about a “debt” held to a loan shark in a foreign country? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30154006 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30154006

by kodah 5y ago

simmanian 5y ago

Thank you for sharing and I think your opinion is certainly valid and it would create more trust if everyone shares your principles. I was just trying to convey this idea that they are there because they serve a need. If we want to imagine a world without these practices, we should probably start by tackling the system itself, not by attacking the surface level actors only.

kodah 5y ago
I wish the world would've been that charitable to me. Instead, had I failed I'd be a +1 on another DOD statistic. I wouldn't have even registered in turnover for most software companies. Nobody would've missed the SWE without a degree beyond my friends. There are few, if any, DEI dashboards that would've tracked a SWE without a degree or an enlisted veteran. On one hand, I hate that people seek accountability so much from individuals. I think individual decisions are so low level most of the time that it makes seeing the bigger picture very difficult, if not impossible. On the other hand, this story is the antithesis of my professional life, and the very principles that may have projected my career also did damage to my personal life because of the focus they demanded. I know what's lost and that makes reading about someone who just wanted more than what they were already given so hard to read. Edit: I do feel for people who have a lack of opportunity. I was there, I lived it, I felt it. That said, it's certainly not the only emotion I connect with when reading this story.
- ok_dad 5y ago
  Honest question: why didn't you use the GI bill to get free college? If you were in and have the "post-9/11" bill (most veterans do if they were in the military at any point in the past 20 years) then you could get a monthly allowance and free college at many good state universities. Most universities will accept any veteran who has a GED or HS diploma, regardless of grades, as long as they take the SAT or ACT (ACT is easier, IMO) and score above the absolute minimum. Universities love the guaranteed VA money! I, for instance, paid my way through 3 years of college using the GI bill, and the monthly allowance I got paid for my apartment and food and etc. for the whole 3 years. I had to go during summers, too, to get the allowance, but I finished a whole math degree during that time. I also got medical coverage from the VA during that time, though that might have been because I'm a certain percentage disabled veteran (I am not sure if VA healthcare is included with the GI bill?). Maybe now you're all set and don't need it, but I find it alarming how many veterans never use the benefits they earned in their service.
  - kodah 5y ago
    Good question, and one I've answered here before. > why didn't you use the GI bill to get free college? I did. I went back for a semester, but the money wasn't enough in my area. I found myself working part time and going to school full time, then eventually doing both full time. The stress got to me and I dropped out again. > Most universities will accept any veteran who has a GED or HS diploma Maybe now, but this is not true as far as my experience goes. The only college that would take me at the time was a community college. I assume this is because I had dropped out mid-semester before. Some context, I was in the DEP and was selected early, so I left with about a weeks notice (This was 2009). When I applied to four year universities I was rejected fairly quickly. > I find it alarming how many veterans never use the benefits they earned in their service. Same, however, I think there's tell-tale signs of why. Loss in institutional trust is one: - The VA provides pretty abysmal care in most places with long waiting lines and subpar coverage. I, up until recently, have been missing a tooth that they extracted in-service and told me the VA would replace with an implant. They would never agree to finishing the work the Navy started. - I've also had the VA fight with me over what bills need to be covered under disability and which I needed to pay for, with them pursuing my tax return at one point (When I really needed that money.) - Proving disability with the VA was litigious. Around they time I gave up they started demanding I show up at some court in Waco, TX which was hours from where I lived. If I went to an outside doctor, I needed to have cash to cover whatever they wanted to do because the VA would frequently protest paying my medical bills - even at VA locations. Another is the lack of post-service programs. I really needed help getting my life back on track, dealing with issues in mental health, etc -- these services were either sparse or did not exist where I was at the time. In the military I was given a week long course called "Seps & TAPS". Last, and maybe not least, I was exhausted. I spent a total of a year in country and returned to civilianhood right around a year after I got back. Having to go to school full time and having to make up for what the Post 9/11 GI Bill wasn't covering wore me to the bone, along with dealing with the VA - who would always insist I skipped work to come see them.

patcon 5y ago

Saying all this with thoughtful consideration: First, I hear ya. But I don't feel he's described his colleagues well enough for me to have your convictions. I can tell that even in reading it, I'm dropping into the roles the sorta people I grew up with. And that gives me my own sense of the slippery slope. For some people there's no path. Military service (USA or Euro or whatever) is a great catch-all that many people use to braid their own bootstraps, and I'm happy you had it, but many people don't have that luxury. I'm not saying it wasn't brutal work and commitment, but access to the ability to DO hard work (with rewards instead of extraction) is often luxury. Some people need to hustle more, and that usually means being scrappy. I feel for your perspective because I've been on your side, criticizing the tactics of extended family from other cultures. It didn't go well, and I've since learned that what some families need to do to survive and succeed looks very different from what I might assume is right. I don't like it; I don't do it; I don't want it to be that way; but I can't dismiss it. Anyhow, much love

jrochkind1 5y ago

My reaction was feeling really bad for the students/apprentices/whatever they are, who seem to me clearly in a terrible situation with few options and being exploited.

908B64B197 5y ago

There's more to these "shops" than meets the eyes: frequently there's also immigration fraud happening. These "consultancies" will make sure someone can qualify for X years of "relevant experience" so they can qualify for a visa (sponsored by said shop). I wouldn’t be surprised if some people actually paid for the training and visa sponsorship. That’s of course illegal but how will they find out about a “debt” held to a loan shark in a foreign country? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30154006 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30154006