8 ms·

I guess this is the end of "sending customer data to the us". Quite impressive how fast the US-politics can burn billions in $, endanger the technological lead

by i5heu 5y ago

I guess this is the end of "sending customer data to the us". Quite impressive how fast the US-politics can burn billions in $, endanger the technological lead and build a massive opportunity for Europe! I, as a European could not be happier about this, from a economic standpoint. Hope you guys over there are not drifting to a surveillance dystopian.

SCUSKU 5y ago
I would say we have been since 9/11.
rapnie 5y ago
Then there's chatcontrol in the EU. Welcome to Europe. https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/members-of-the-european-parliament-warn-against-commissions-chat-control-mass-surveillance-plans/ https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/members-of-the-european-par...
ChuckNorris89 5y ago
>I, as a European could not be happier about this, from a economic standpoint. Please, let me play you the world's smallest violin. This trope, constantly celebrating that $CURRENT_YEAR will finally be the year of EU tech dominance over US giants, has been on repeat ever since Snowden revealed that the NSA is in bed with every major US tech company and is actively spying on EU users. And that was all the way back in 2013. Sure, the Facebook empire is crumbling now, but since 2013, we still have no EU competitors for Google, Microsoft, Apple, AWS, etc. despite this knowledge that US tech companies have no regard for privacy and that the US government is using them to spy on us.
- pastacacioepepe 5y ago
  The fragility of the American exceptionalism. What if we don't want FAANGs in Europe? What if it's harder for FAANGs to develop in Europe because they can't be as aggressive and careless as american corps are? Personally I don't want Europe to allow huge monopolistic corps to take over our economy. Why would we want Google, the search engine that provides ads and spies on you instead of providing good results? Why would we want Facebook/Meta, the ridicolously troubled corporation hated by pretty much everyone at this point? Why would we want Amazon, famous for exploiting it's workforce, using old wild west methods against unions, exploiting its own sellers by copying their products and selling them for less? Why would we want Microsoft and Apple and their cartel like attitudes, when we could have a different paradigm of software/hardware that goes to benefit everyone, instead of existing only as a competitive advantage to take over the market? All of this companies will do anything in their power (lecit or not) to increase their market share and avoid paying taxes. You can keep your silicon valleys and your oligocratic economy, thank you.
  - ChuckNorris89 5y ago
    I'm European.
    - pastacacioepepe 5y ago
      Well I'm not really answering to you (as an individual/person), but to the concept you expressed, which is VERY american.
      - ChuckNorris89 5y ago
        I didn't express my concept, I expressed the reality that US tech companies have universally conquered Europe. If the EU would have had the ability to compete in these sectors, then we would have done it already ever since we found out in 2013 that the US is spying on us, or way before that. But nothing changed since then. Almost every EU company and government institution is using Microsoft products and all consumers use Apple, Google or Windows. Where is this EU competition here?
        MomoXenosaga 5y ago
        The sad reality is that we have all tied ourselves to America which was considered an unsinkable bastion of Western democracy and civilization. As Europeans we should have known better: all nations rise and fall.
        psd1 5y ago
        Linus Torvalds is Finnish and was studying in Finland when he created Linux.
        ChuckNorris89 5y ago
        So what? We were talking about companies not individuals. The Linux kernel is not a company, not a product you can buy and neither is Linus Torvalds. Plus, for the last 20+ years Linus has been working from the US while also gaining US citizenship. Case in point for US tech dominance, talent bread in Europe ends up in the US.
rascul 5y ago
The bill hasn't passed yet. It went through a committee, but it has not passed in either the House or the Senate. There's still plenty of opportunity for this bill to get voted out. https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/117/s3538 https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/117/s3538
- neycoda 5y ago
  It's creeping forward. It seems Republicans are a captive audience, Corporate Democrats are on their way, and Progressives and Libertarians are about the only ones pushing against it.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
rmbyrro 5y ago
I'm not American nor European. The US tech industry is lightyears ahead of European counterparts because of factors other than meeting market demands for privacy. I don't think this is going to fundamentally change anything.
- DyslexicAtheist 5y ago
  > I don't think this is going to fundamentally change anything. me neither. my in-laws (90+) in Japan are excited about a new DoCoMo phone and always talks about the latest features. He is not an engineer. He is also not a rare case in that country (or that continent). My own mother back in EU and most of my family are deeply ambivalent at best, or absolutely opposing new Tech / data-driven ideas. Europe is like the polar opposite of Asia in that sense. The US is some kind of weird middle-ground. When I returned from Asia to EU after 10 years over there I had a reverse-culture shock that lasted at least 5 years. Everything looked backward and stagnant to me. As I get older I realize I'm also becoming very critical. But age can't explain the ambivalence otherwise Japan would be the most Technology hostile society in the world.
  - rmbyrro 5y ago
    Yeah, seems the only country that can dream about challenging the US tech industry is China. But they'll have a hard time with reputational issues. I mean, how long until a sizeable chunk (+30%) of western tech businesses, or even other major Asian economies, start choosing Aliyun over any of the five big US cloud providers? I think safe to say not in the next 5 years. But who knows...
tagoregrtst 5y ago
Get off your high horse. This is a long term international effort where irrelevant Western countries in the peripheries (that’s the EU) have nibbled away at encryption protections to make it easier for the US to do the same. It’s part of a two decades long effort by Western elites to correct their mistakes from the nineties - namely loosening the noose on information and privacy. Australia, France, UK all have draconian laws that would cause outrage (or are outright unconstitutional) in the US. The only data protection the EU has is because fussy Eurocrats are annoyed that the US (and not them) get to syphon all of European’s data. The US is really flawed, but I wouldn't move back to the EU for double my family’s income.
- disgruntledphd2 5y ago
  > The US is really flawed, but I wouldn't move back to the EU for double my family’s income. Which of the 27(8) countries did you live in, as they are rather different?
  - DyslexicAtheist 5y ago
    the problem with being an immigrant, and I have seen this on myself, is that we tend to see the host country through rose colored glasses (best case). Or if we are from a poor / unprivileged background we've been put through hell by trying to survive in the new country. And in the latter case it results in (worst case) those groups becoming the most extreme defenders of whatever that country does. That gets then compounded by having to defend your old customs (from your origin society) even that origin society has meanwhile moved on. The person who just moved to a new place is very unlikely to speak ill of their new hosts or join an activist group to fight against what is a local issue. It's generally a bad idea to poop where you eat but it's unthinkable when you consider yourself still a guest in that country. The whole thing takes generations usually.
    - tagoregrtst 5y ago
      Agreed, its very common. But this doesn’t apply to me. Allow me to explain: I lived in four different countries across three continents seven different times by age 15. Throughout, middle class. Leaving Europe for Canada as a teen was extremely difficult. I still love Europe the place and Europe the people. Finally, I moved to the US from Canada - hardly polar opposites - and was reared on a diet of anti-Americanism that took ten years to shed. I didn't dream of coming to the US, the best grad program that I got accepted to was in the US. I didn’t want to stay, I got married. I came to love the US kicking and screaming.
DyslexicAtheist 5y ago
> Hope you guys over there are not drifting to a surveillance dystopian. that's not a local problem but a global one. Many EU countries are well on their way into dystopia. The dystopia is an unavoidable side-effect[1] of having technology and categorizing everything in systems (and systems of systems). This argument gets attacked by "BUT everything can be used for good or bad". But Technology is not neutral. We just pretend it's neutral because we wouldn't know who to hold accountable when dealing with cause/effect in complex systems of systems (emergence). Consider the following[2]: > In a society such as ours, it is almost impossible for a person to be responsible. A simple example: a dam has been built somewhere, and it bursts. Who is responsible for that? Geologists worked out. They examined the terrain. Engineers drew up the construction plans. Workmen constructed it. And the politicians decided that the dam had to be in that spot. Who is responsible? No one. There is never anyone responsible. Anywhere. In the whole of our technological society the work is so fragmented and broken up into small pieces that no one is responsible. But no one is free either. Everyone has his own, specific task. And that's all he has to do. > Just consider, for example, that atrocious excuse… It was one of the most horrible things I have ever heard. The director of the Bergen-Belsen concentration camp was asked at the Nuremburg trials, “But didn’t you find it horrible? All those corpses?” He replied, “What could I do? I couldn’t process all those corpses. The capacity of the ovens was too small. It caused me many problems. I had no time to think about these people. I was too busy with the technical problem of my ovens.” That is the classic example of an irresponsible person. He carries out his technical task and isn’t interested in anything else. [1] The Technological Society, by Jacques Ellul https://archive.org/details/JacquesEllulTheTechnologicalSociety https://archive.org/details/JacquesEllulTheTechnologicalSoci... [2] The Betrayal by Technology, by Jacques Ellul (1993 film), 06:51: https://youtu.be/BOCtu-rXfPk?t=411 https://youtu.be/BOCtu-rXfPk?t=411
tastyfreeze 5y ago
Drifting? We have been there for a long while. The FBI implemented Carnivore in 1997. It is foolish to think surveillance has done anything but grow since then. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnivore_%28software%29?wprov=sfla1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnivore_%28software%29?wprov...
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

by i5heu 5y ago

SCUSKU 5y ago

I would say we have been since 9/11.

rapnie 5y ago

Then there's chatcontrol in the EU. Welcome to Europe. https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/members-of-the-european-parliament-warn-against-commissions-chat-control-mass-surveillance-plans/ https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/members-of-the-european-par...

ChuckNorris89 5y ago

>I, as a European could not be happier about this, from a economic standpoint. Please, let me play you the world's smallest violin. This trope, constantly celebrating that $CURRENT_YEAR will finally be the year of EU tech dominance over US giants, has been on repeat ever since Snowden revealed that the NSA is in bed with every major US tech company and is actively spying on EU users. And that was all the way back in 2013. Sure, the Facebook empire is crumbling now, but since 2013, we still have no EU competitors for Google, Microsoft, Apple, AWS, etc. despite this knowledge that US tech companies have no regard for privacy and that the US government is using them to spy on us.

pastacacioepepe 5y ago
The fragility of the American exceptionalism. What if we don't want FAANGs in Europe? What if it's harder for FAANGs to develop in Europe because they can't be as aggressive and careless as american corps are? Personally I don't want Europe to allow huge monopolistic corps to take over our economy. Why would we want Google, the search engine that provides ads and spies on you instead of providing good results? Why would we want Facebook/Meta, the ridicolously troubled corporation hated by pretty much everyone at this point? Why would we want Amazon, famous for exploiting it's workforce, using old wild west methods against unions, exploiting its own sellers by copying their products and selling them for less? Why would we want Microsoft and Apple and their cartel like attitudes, when we could have a different paradigm of software/hardware that goes to benefit everyone, instead of existing only as a competitive advantage to take over the market? All of this companies will do anything in their power (lecit or not) to increase their market share and avoid paying taxes. You can keep your silicon valleys and your oligocratic economy, thank you.
- ChuckNorris89 5y ago
  I'm European.
  - pastacacioepepe 5y ago
    Well I'm not really answering to you (as an individual/person), but to the concept you expressed, which is VERY american.
    - ChuckNorris89 5y ago
      I didn't express my concept, I expressed the reality that US tech companies have universally conquered Europe. If the EU would have had the ability to compete in these sectors, then we would have done it already ever since we found out in 2013 that the US is spying on us, or way before that. But nothing changed since then. Almost every EU company and government institution is using Microsoft products and all consumers use Apple, Google or Windows. Where is this EU competition here?
      - MomoXenosaga 5y ago
        The sad reality is that we have all tied ourselves to America which was considered an unsinkable bastion of Western democracy and civilization. As Europeans we should have known better: all nations rise and fall.
      - psd1 5y ago
        Linus Torvalds is Finnish and was studying in Finland when he created Linux.
        ChuckNorris89 5y ago
        So what? We were talking about companies not individuals. The Linux kernel is not a company, not a product you can buy and neither is Linus Torvalds. Plus, for the last 20+ years Linus has been working from the US while also gaining US citizenship. Case in point for US tech dominance, talent bread in Europe ends up in the US.

rascul 5y ago

The bill hasn't passed yet. It went through a committee, but it has not passed in either the House or the Senate. There's still plenty of opportunity for this bill to get voted out. https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/117/s3538 https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/117/s3538

neycoda 5y ago
It's creeping forward. It seems Republicans are a captive audience, Corporate Democrats are on their way, and Progressives and Libertarians are about the only ones pushing against it.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

rmbyrro 5y ago

I'm not American nor European. The US tech industry is lightyears ahead of European counterparts because of factors other than meeting market demands for privacy. I don't think this is going to fundamentally change anything.

DyslexicAtheist 5y ago
> I don't think this is going to fundamentally change anything. me neither. my in-laws (90+) in Japan are excited about a new DoCoMo phone and always talks about the latest features. He is not an engineer. He is also not a rare case in that country (or that continent). My own mother back in EU and most of my family are deeply ambivalent at best, or absolutely opposing new Tech / data-driven ideas. Europe is like the polar opposite of Asia in that sense. The US is some kind of weird middle-ground. When I returned from Asia to EU after 10 years over there I had a reverse-culture shock that lasted at least 5 years. Everything looked backward and stagnant to me. As I get older I realize I'm also becoming very critical. But age can't explain the ambivalence otherwise Japan would be the most Technology hostile society in the world.
- rmbyrro 5y ago
  Yeah, seems the only country that can dream about challenging the US tech industry is China. But they'll have a hard time with reputational issues. I mean, how long until a sizeable chunk (+30%) of western tech businesses, or even other major Asian economies, start choosing Aliyun over any of the five big US cloud providers? I think safe to say not in the next 5 years. But who knows...

tagoregrtst 5y ago

Get off your high horse. This is a long term international effort where irrelevant Western countries in the peripheries (that’s the EU) have nibbled away at encryption protections to make it easier for the US to do the same. It’s part of a two decades long effort by Western elites to correct their mistakes from the nineties - namely loosening the noose on information and privacy. Australia, France, UK all have draconian laws that would cause outrage (or are outright unconstitutional) in the US. The only data protection the EU has is because fussy Eurocrats are annoyed that the US (and not them) get to syphon all of European’s data. The US is really flawed, but I wouldn't move back to the EU for double my family’s income.

disgruntledphd2 5y ago
> The US is really flawed, but I wouldn't move back to the EU for double my family’s income. Which of the 27(8) countries did you live in, as they are rather different?
- DyslexicAtheist 5y ago
  the problem with being an immigrant, and I have seen this on myself, is that we tend to see the host country through rose colored glasses (best case). Or if we are from a poor / unprivileged background we've been put through hell by trying to survive in the new country. And in the latter case it results in (worst case) those groups becoming the most extreme defenders of whatever that country does. That gets then compounded by having to defend your old customs (from your origin society) even that origin society has meanwhile moved on. The person who just moved to a new place is very unlikely to speak ill of their new hosts or join an activist group to fight against what is a local issue. It's generally a bad idea to poop where you eat but it's unthinkable when you consider yourself still a guest in that country. The whole thing takes generations usually.
  - tagoregrtst 5y ago
    Agreed, its very common. But this doesn’t apply to me. Allow me to explain: I lived in four different countries across three continents seven different times by age 15. Throughout, middle class. Leaving Europe for Canada as a teen was extremely difficult. I still love Europe the place and Europe the people. Finally, I moved to the US from Canada - hardly polar opposites - and was reared on a diet of anti-Americanism that took ten years to shed. I didn't dream of coming to the US, the best grad program that I got accepted to was in the US. I didn’t want to stay, I got married. I came to love the US kicking and screaming.

DyslexicAtheist 5y ago

> Hope you guys over there are not drifting to a surveillance dystopian. that's not a local problem but a global one. Many EU countries are well on their way into dystopia. The dystopia is an unavoidable side-effect[1] of having technology and categorizing everything in systems (and systems of systems). This argument gets attacked by "BUT everything can be used for good or bad". But Technology is not neutral. We just pretend it's neutral because we wouldn't know who to hold accountable when dealing with cause/effect in complex systems of systems (emergence). Consider the following[2]: > In a society such as ours, it is almost impossible for a person to be responsible. A simple example: a dam has been built somewhere, and it bursts. Who is responsible for that? Geologists worked out. They examined the terrain. Engineers drew up the construction plans. Workmen constructed it. And the politicians decided that the dam had to be in that spot. Who is responsible? No one. There is never anyone responsible. Anywhere. In the whole of our technological society the work is so fragmented and broken up into small pieces that no one is responsible. But no one is free either. Everyone has his own, specific task. And that's all he has to do. > Just consider, for example, that atrocious excuse… It was one of the most horrible things I have ever heard. The director of the Bergen-Belsen concentration camp was asked at the Nuremburg trials, “But didn’t you find it horrible? All those corpses?” He replied, “What could I do? I couldn’t process all those corpses. The capacity of the ovens was too small. It caused me many problems. I had no time to think about these people. I was too busy with the technical problem of my ovens.” That is the classic example of an irresponsible person. He carries out his technical task and isn’t interested in anything else. [1] The Technological Society, by Jacques Ellul https://archive.org/details/JacquesEllulTheTechnologicalSociety https://archive.org/details/JacquesEllulTheTechnologicalSoci... [2] The Betrayal by Technology, by Jacques Ellul (1993 film), 06:51: https://youtu.be/BOCtu-rXfPk?t=411 https://youtu.be/BOCtu-rXfPk?t=411

tastyfreeze 5y ago

Drifting? We have been there for a long while. The FBI implemented Carnivore in 1997. It is foolish to think surveillance has done anything but grow since then. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnivore_%28software%29?wprov=sfla1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnivore_%28software%29?wprov...

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]