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I completely agree with this line of reasoning, which is why I called the fixation with Mars Quixotic elsewhere in the thread. I was discussing this with some f

by sfblah 5y ago

I completely agree with this line of reasoning, which is why I called the fixation with Mars Quixotic elsewhere in the thread. I was discussing this with some friends. Why not just pick some other totally inhospitable environment and try to live there instead? I mentioned inside a volcano lower in the thread. It seems to me you'd get all the same side-benefits of technological development.

fastball 5y ago
Because if an asteroid destroys earth, your volcano base ain't gonna save life as we know it. Because any such project is going to require herculean effort on the part of many humans, and many humans are interested in colonizing Mars but not so many are interested in colonizing volcanoes. Your question is basically: why do people care about this thing I don't care about and instead care about this thing that neither I nor they care about.
- sfblah 5y ago
  I guess you’ve never read about Xenu. Some people believe volcanoes are pretty important.
  - elkos 5y ago
    And DC-9s if I remember correctly
- sangnoir 5y ago
  > Because if an asteroid destroys earth, your volcano base ain't gonna save life as we know it If an asteroid destroys earth, your Mars base won't save life as we know it either. There's a lot of handwaving in this thread on the technologies required to bridge the gap between Starship existing and self-sustaining life on Mars. Paradoxically, self-sustaining space manufacture/Mars colony will obviate the need for frequent heavy-lift rocket launches.
  - fastball 5y ago
    How is that paradoxical? Bootstrapping a self-sustaining colony on Mars will require getting a massive amount of payload to the red planet. Once bootstrapped, yes that will no longer be required. Nobody is arguing that Starship is sufficient, just that it is necessary.
    - sangnoir 5y ago
      > Nobody is arguing that Starship is sufficient, just that it is necessary. No, it's the yet-to-be-invented tech that is necessary. Your unstated prior is that this non-existent tech will in turn require heavy-lift capacity, and there is no evidence for that. Maybe we can bootstrap space manufacturing off 2 Arianne 5 launches, or 50 starship launches, nobody knows because it's all make-believe atm. What Starship is good for, is frequent supply runs to a dependant Mars base, with today's technology - but that's nor what people are saying because that's not sexy.
ralfd 5y ago
But the utopian end goal is to make Mars hospitable. For Musk a Mars city is not the end goal but the first step. For example one could make a magnetic shield in L1 Mars Orbit. There was a speculative Nasa study (Wikipedia): > If constructed, the shield may allow the planet to restore its atmosphere. Simulations indicate that within years, the planet would be able to achieve half the atmospheric pressure of Earth. Without solar winds stripping away at the planet, frozen carbon dioxide at the ice caps on either pole would begin to sublimate (change from a solid into a gas) and warm the equator. Ice caps would begin to melt to form an ocean. T Of course there is much difficulty and unkown unknowns. Maybe this is truly impossible. Maybe this will take a million years. Maybe Mars soil is too toxic for plant growth. But the upshoot of terraforming Mars is so fantastical, that it is at least worth dreaming about.

by sfblah 5y ago

fastball 5y ago

Because if an asteroid destroys earth, your volcano base ain't gonna save life as we know it. Because any such project is going to require herculean effort on the part of many humans, and many humans are interested in colonizing Mars but not so many are interested in colonizing volcanoes. Your question is basically: why do people care about this thing I don't care about and instead care about this thing that neither I nor they care about.

sfblah 5y ago
I guess you’ve never read about Xenu. Some people believe volcanoes are pretty important.
- elkos 5y ago
  And DC-9s if I remember correctly
sangnoir 5y ago
> Because if an asteroid destroys earth, your volcano base ain't gonna save life as we know it If an asteroid destroys earth, your Mars base won't save life as we know it either. There's a lot of handwaving in this thread on the technologies required to bridge the gap between Starship existing and self-sustaining life on Mars. Paradoxically, self-sustaining space manufacture/Mars colony will obviate the need for frequent heavy-lift rocket launches.
- fastball 5y ago
  How is that paradoxical? Bootstrapping a self-sustaining colony on Mars will require getting a massive amount of payload to the red planet. Once bootstrapped, yes that will no longer be required. Nobody is arguing that Starship is sufficient, just that it is necessary.
  - sangnoir 5y ago
    > Nobody is arguing that Starship is sufficient, just that it is necessary. No, it's the yet-to-be-invented tech that is necessary. Your unstated prior is that this non-existent tech will in turn require heavy-lift capacity, and there is no evidence for that. Maybe we can bootstrap space manufacturing off 2 Arianne 5 launches, or 50 starship launches, nobody knows because it's all make-believe atm. What Starship is good for, is frequent supply runs to a dependant Mars base, with today's technology - but that's nor what people are saying because that's not sexy.

ralfd 5y ago

But the utopian end goal is to make Mars hospitable. For Musk a Mars city is not the end goal but the first step. For example one could make a magnetic shield in L1 Mars Orbit. There was a speculative Nasa study (Wikipedia): > If constructed, the shield may allow the planet to restore its atmosphere. Simulations indicate that within years, the planet would be able to achieve half the atmospheric pressure of Earth. Without solar winds stripping away at the planet, frozen carbon dioxide at the ice caps on either pole would begin to sublimate (change from a solid into a gas) and warm the equator. Ice caps would begin to melt to form an ocean. T Of course there is much difficulty and unkown unknowns. Maybe this is truly impossible. Maybe this will take a million years. Maybe Mars soil is too toxic for plant growth. But the upshoot of terraforming Mars is so fantastical, that it is at least worth dreaming about.