6 ms·

> birth lottery There are plenty of people born into more favorable conditions than Elon Musk, who haven’t had 1/10,000th of the success that he has had.

anonporridge 5y ago
Most people who achieve massive success are born into privilege. Being able to spend your time studying and getting exposed to cutting edge developments rather than struggling to just survive is a massive advantage. It's largely a necessary, but not sufficient condition for major success. People that rise from nothing to achieve massive success are the exception that prove the rule.
- pageandrew 5y ago
  Yes, if someone is struggling to survive, that will limit their ability to become a world-changing entrepreneur. That said, the average westerner is not struggling to survive, and the average westerner does not end up founding 3 world changing companies and amassing a wealth of $200 billion. Not even the average birthright 1%er achieves that.
  - flyt 5y ago
    Oh, but they are. The average westerner (in the US, at least) is a $400 unexpected bill away from bankruptcy. Also, Musk was not a founder of Tesla.
    - pverghese 5y ago
      Don't buy an iPhone you'll be 1000 less away from bankruptcy
    - fastball 5y ago
      > Also, Musk was not a founder of Tesla. Lawsuit says otherwise.
      - jjulius 5y ago
        The settlement just said that they could call themselves founders. Equally, a settlement could've also been reached that said that everyone involved could call themselves "buttholes". What doesn't change regardless of that settlement is the fact that Musk didn't actually found (or "start" if folk wanna get all nitpicky bEcAuSe SeTtLeMeNt SaYs So) the company, invested a year after it was founded, and didn't become CEO for another four years.
        fastball 5y ago
        What is a founder? If I incorporate a company and then bring my friend onboard a day later, is he a founder? Why or why not?
        jjulius 5y ago
        First, there's a difference between bringing someone onboard the day after incorporation and the timeline I mentioned. Second, what are you bringing your friend onboard for? Were you collaborating on this idea with them before you incorporated? Or did you bring them on because you realized you needed more money (eg, Musk)? Early investor is what he was, along with chairman, then CEO, but it's disingenuous to call him a founder. The settlement you referenced is really just dick swinging.
        virgilp 5y ago
        The legal result of the settlement is that Musk can call himself a (co)founder, and so can Straubel & Wright. Even Eberhard agreed to that. You may personally feel he's not entitled to the title, but that's just it, a personal feeling. He's literally legally entitled to have this title. Why contradict people on the internet, and say "actually, Musk is not a founder of Tesla"? If anything, it is (right now) disingenuous to claim he is not a founder, given that maybe not all people know the full history and some may believe that he didn't (legally) earn the title.
        5y ago
    - jandrewrogers 5y ago
      The average American is not an unexpected $400 bill away from bankruptcy. This has been debunked countless times. Per the US government's own detailed statistics (BLS), the median household has $1000 per month leftover after all ordinary expenses. That's literally money available to piss away on whatever after all the basic lifestyle expenses, so it will definitely cover a $400 expense. Americans have a lot of discretionary income. While there is a part of the population that cannot afford an unexpected $400 expense, that only applies to 10-15% of the population, per Federal Reserve studies.
      - lamontcg 5y ago
        how many people would have a $50,000 expense set their retirement savings back at last a couple years, if not bankrupt them? none of these people are building a rocket company in their lives.
        ameister14 5y ago
        $400 =/= $50000 Also Jeff Bezos was born to a high school attending mom who worked as a secretary and went to night school after she quickly became a single mom - he built a rocket company
        sillysaurusx 5y ago
        Good lord. Jeff Bezos worked in finance and had a six figure job lined up if Amazon failed. I can’t figure out if this is an HN thing, but this cult mentality of “anyone can do it” needs to die out.
        ameister14 5y ago
        I honestly don't understand. If your point is someone who has only worked jobs for minimum wage is never going to suddenly start a rocket company I'd say you're correct. Especially if someone built or found their safety net on their own, I don't think we should begrudge them having it. How do you think this works? Do you think 'anyone can do it' means winning the lottery? It means working really hard, getting lucky along the way, and being smart - that likely means getting into finance if it's the 80's and early 90's and tech if it's late nineties and aughts. It doesn't happen overnight. The reality is, though, that you don't have to be born to millionaires to be one of the richest people in the world.
    - mlindner 5y ago
      > Also, Musk was not a founder of Tesla. Musk was a co-founder. He joined the company as effectively employee 4. He became chairman of the board after employee 3 (including the two original co-founders) and was the primary designer of the Roadster from that early point. He basically bankrolled the entire original set of funding (around 90% of it).
  - fartcannon 5y ago
    Its not even that complex. If there was an identical Elon that came one year after Elon, he wouldn't be able to have what Elon has. It's all luck of the draw all the way down.
    - varjag 5y ago
      How about why no idential Elon came the year before Elon? It's not like the idea of powered landing was unheard of, and tech ingredients were there for arguably decades.
    - ralfd 5y ago
      > Its not even that complex. If there was an identical Elon that came one year after Elon, he wouldn't be able to have what Elon has. The universe actually did run that experiment: Kimbal Musk is the younger brother of Elon. He too was born at the right time, the explosion of the word wide web, and made very favorable investments and is presumably filthy rich. But he doesn't have the drive to build rockets. https://www.forbes.com/sites/rachelsandler/2021/11/11/the-other-musk-getting-rich-off-tesla-elons-youngest-brother/?sh=232f3b1b7758 https://www.forbes.com/sites/rachelsandler/2021/11/11/the-ot... It is similar to Jeff Bezos brother Mark. Mark Bezos lead by every conventional measure a successful life: high managing career in advertising and at a charity non-profit, wife and 4 kids. But without his brother he wouldn't have a Wiki entry. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Bezos https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Bezos
      - sillysaurusx 5y ago
        People seem to be confusing birth lottery with determination. Working hard is table stakes. But you seem to imply that anyone who isn’t poor can do it, if only they work hard enough. I think this mindset is mistaken.
  - CharlesW 5y ago
    > That said, the average westerner is not struggling to survive… This is an extremely privileged and out-of-touch POV.
    - signatoremo 5y ago
      Care to prove your POV? The average people of country like China isn’t struggling to survive. The average westerner — Americans, Europeans, Japanese, is definitely not either.
- aradox66 5y ago
  Well put. I've never seen someone use the phrase "exception that proves the rule" non-ironically. Why is it more than just a class of exceptions? How does it prove anything?
  - anonporridge 5y ago
    I use that phrase as, we usually elevate exceptional things because they are exceptions. That elevation itself implies that it's something special that goes against the norms (or against the rule). So, our awareness of a small number of exceptions proves the fact that there is an underlying rule that applies to the majority of non exceptional instances.
- ameister14 5y ago
  That's a pretty small group of people to start with. Apparently there have been only nine people between 1750 and 1950 worth over $100 billion dollars. (Wikipedia, so who knows) Of them, 6 were not born into privilege: Cornelius Vanderbilt, Stephen Girard, John D. Rockefeller, Carnegie, John Jakob Astor, and Henry Ford. Including the modern era adds another 9, only 2 of which were not born into privilege - Larry Ellison and Jeff Bezos. You could argue definition of privilege and add Sergey Brin in there maybe. So depending on your definition of privilege and 'massive success,' you might be only just correct, with 10/18 people worth over $100 billion in the last 250 years or so coming from privilege.
Barrin92 5y ago
Most successful tech entrepreneurs seem to come from more or less his demographics, which is a upper middle/professional class upbringing. I don't think coming from extreme old money generally lends itself to entrepreneurship, there's a goldilocks zone that involves some degree of having to work for a living, having migrated or something along those lines.

anonporridge 5y ago

Most people who achieve massive success are born into privilege. Being able to spend your time studying and getting exposed to cutting edge developments rather than struggling to just survive is a massive advantage. It's largely a necessary, but not sufficient condition for major success. People that rise from nothing to achieve massive success are the exception that prove the rule.

pageandrew 5y ago
Yes, if someone is struggling to survive, that will limit their ability to become a world-changing entrepreneur. That said, the average westerner is not struggling to survive, and the average westerner does not end up founding 3 world changing companies and amassing a wealth of $200 billion. Not even the average birthright 1%er achieves that.
- flyt 5y ago
  Oh, but they are. The average westerner (in the US, at least) is a $400 unexpected bill away from bankruptcy. Also, Musk was not a founder of Tesla.
  - pverghese 5y ago
    Don't buy an iPhone you'll be 1000 less away from bankruptcy
  - fastball 5y ago
    > Also, Musk was not a founder of Tesla. Lawsuit says otherwise.
    - jjulius 5y ago
      The settlement just said that they could call themselves founders. Equally, a settlement could've also been reached that said that everyone involved could call themselves "buttholes". What doesn't change regardless of that settlement is the fact that Musk didn't actually found (or "start" if folk wanna get all nitpicky bEcAuSe SeTtLeMeNt SaYs So) the company, invested a year after it was founded, and didn't become CEO for another four years.
      - fastball 5y ago
        What is a founder? If I incorporate a company and then bring my friend onboard a day later, is he a founder? Why or why not?
        jjulius 5y ago
        First, there's a difference between bringing someone onboard the day after incorporation and the timeline I mentioned. Second, what are you bringing your friend onboard for? Were you collaborating on this idea with them before you incorporated? Or did you bring them on because you realized you needed more money (eg, Musk)? Early investor is what he was, along with chairman, then CEO, but it's disingenuous to call him a founder. The settlement you referenced is really just dick swinging.
        virgilp 5y ago
        The legal result of the settlement is that Musk can call himself a (co)founder, and so can Straubel & Wright. Even Eberhard agreed to that. You may personally feel he's not entitled to the title, but that's just it, a personal feeling. He's literally legally entitled to have this title. Why contradict people on the internet, and say "actually, Musk is not a founder of Tesla"? If anything, it is (right now) disingenuous to claim he is not a founder, given that maybe not all people know the full history and some may believe that he didn't (legally) earn the title.
        5y ago
  - jandrewrogers 5y ago
    The average American is not an unexpected $400 bill away from bankruptcy. This has been debunked countless times. Per the US government's own detailed statistics (BLS), the median household has $1000 per month leftover after all ordinary expenses. That's literally money available to piss away on whatever after all the basic lifestyle expenses, so it will definitely cover a $400 expense. Americans have a lot of discretionary income. While there is a part of the population that cannot afford an unexpected $400 expense, that only applies to 10-15% of the population, per Federal Reserve studies.
    - lamontcg 5y ago
      how many people would have a $50,000 expense set their retirement savings back at last a couple years, if not bankrupt them? none of these people are building a rocket company in their lives.
      - ameister14 5y ago
        $400 =/= $50000 Also Jeff Bezos was born to a high school attending mom who worked as a secretary and went to night school after she quickly became a single mom - he built a rocket company
        sillysaurusx 5y ago
        Good lord. Jeff Bezos worked in finance and had a six figure job lined up if Amazon failed. I can’t figure out if this is an HN thing, but this cult mentality of “anyone can do it” needs to die out.
        ameister14 5y ago
        I honestly don't understand. If your point is someone who has only worked jobs for minimum wage is never going to suddenly start a rocket company I'd say you're correct. Especially if someone built or found their safety net on their own, I don't think we should begrudge them having it. How do you think this works? Do you think 'anyone can do it' means winning the lottery? It means working really hard, getting lucky along the way, and being smart - that likely means getting into finance if it's the 80's and early 90's and tech if it's late nineties and aughts. It doesn't happen overnight. The reality is, though, that you don't have to be born to millionaires to be one of the richest people in the world.
  - mlindner 5y ago
    > Also, Musk was not a founder of Tesla. Musk was a co-founder. He joined the company as effectively employee 4. He became chairman of the board after employee 3 (including the two original co-founders) and was the primary designer of the Roadster from that early point. He basically bankrolled the entire original set of funding (around 90% of it).
- fartcannon 5y ago
  Its not even that complex. If there was an identical Elon that came one year after Elon, he wouldn't be able to have what Elon has. It's all luck of the draw all the way down.
  - varjag 5y ago
    How about why no idential Elon came the year before Elon? It's not like the idea of powered landing was unheard of, and tech ingredients were there for arguably decades.
  - ralfd 5y ago
    > Its not even that complex. If there was an identical Elon that came one year after Elon, he wouldn't be able to have what Elon has. The universe actually did run that experiment: Kimbal Musk is the younger brother of Elon. He too was born at the right time, the explosion of the word wide web, and made very favorable investments and is presumably filthy rich. But he doesn't have the drive to build rockets. https://www.forbes.com/sites/rachelsandler/2021/11/11/the-other-musk-getting-rich-off-tesla-elons-youngest-brother/?sh=232f3b1b7758 https://www.forbes.com/sites/rachelsandler/2021/11/11/the-ot... It is similar to Jeff Bezos brother Mark. Mark Bezos lead by every conventional measure a successful life: high managing career in advertising and at a charity non-profit, wife and 4 kids. But without his brother he wouldn't have a Wiki entry. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Bezos https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Bezos
    - sillysaurusx 5y ago
      People seem to be confusing birth lottery with determination. Working hard is table stakes. But you seem to imply that anyone who isn’t poor can do it, if only they work hard enough. I think this mindset is mistaken.
- CharlesW 5y ago
  > That said, the average westerner is not struggling to survive… This is an extremely privileged and out-of-touch POV.
  - signatoremo 5y ago
    Care to prove your POV? The average people of country like China isn’t struggling to survive. The average westerner — Americans, Europeans, Japanese, is definitely not either.
aradox66 5y ago
Well put. I've never seen someone use the phrase "exception that proves the rule" non-ironically. Why is it more than just a class of exceptions? How does it prove anything?
- anonporridge 5y ago
  I use that phrase as, we usually elevate exceptional things because they are exceptions. That elevation itself implies that it's something special that goes against the norms (or against the rule). So, our awareness of a small number of exceptions proves the fact that there is an underlying rule that applies to the majority of non exceptional instances.
ameister14 5y ago
That's a pretty small group of people to start with. Apparently there have been only nine people between 1750 and 1950 worth over $100 billion dollars. (Wikipedia, so who knows) Of them, 6 were not born into privilege: Cornelius Vanderbilt, Stephen Girard, John D. Rockefeller, Carnegie, John Jakob Astor, and Henry Ford. Including the modern era adds another 9, only 2 of which were not born into privilege - Larry Ellison and Jeff Bezos. You could argue definition of privilege and add Sergey Brin in there maybe. So depending on your definition of privilege and 'massive success,' you might be only just correct, with 10/18 people worth over $100 billion in the last 250 years or so coming from privilege.

Barrin92 5y ago

Most successful tech entrepreneurs seem to come from more or less his demographics, which is a upper middle/professional class upbringing. I don't think coming from extreme old money generally lends itself to entrepreneurship, there's a goldilocks zone that involves some degree of having to work for a living, having migrated or something along those lines.