6 ms·

I sort of understand where this question is coming from, but as someone who's spent a fair amount of time browsing software job postings recently, the real ques

by qchris 5y ago

I sort of understand where this question is coming from, but as someone who's spent a fair amount of time browsing software job postings recently, the real question isn't specialization, it's seniority. I routinely have found organizations that have, literally, dozens of open listings for "Senior Software Engineer, Sub-field", but few (if any) explicitly non-senior positions available. My very non-scientific estimate would put this ratio at well over 10:1, and probably closer to 20:1 for many of the organizations I've looked through. I actually sort of wonder if they ever take them down, or if demand for senior candidates is just so high that they're basically evergreen listings, where the organizations assume they'll always have positions available for engineers who meet those listings' criteria.

stefanba3 5y ago
In my (very long) experience, companies routinely post for Sr. Engineer where they would gladly take a less experienced person they liked.
brailsafe 5y ago
This holds up in my recent search. I just apply to these anyway, because what they define as senior might be totally different between companies.
- g051051 5y ago
  Yeah, most of the "senior" positions I see state that they want 5 or so years experience.
  - zepolen 5y ago
    There are seniors with 5 years of proper experience that will run circles around the seniors that have 15 years doing the same 1 year of experience.
    - brailsafe 5y ago
      I guess it probably depends what you mean by "running circles around".
MattGaiser 5y ago
My last org just wanted one senior software engineer. Just one. They couldn't find one as the salary sucked, despite interviewing about a dozen over 6 months.
- willcipriano 5y ago
  > despite interviewing about a dozen over 6 months Did they really want one? I'd wager that if they took those six months of interviews, job ads and recruiter time and instead took that money, added it to the salary they are planning on offering (say divided by the average tenure in that role at your company) and threw up a post on the monthly "Who is hiring" thread here they could've found someone. A common tactic is to say "Oh, we are looking for the right person we just can't find them!" when the rest of the team picks up the workload of the exited employee and to keep that up as long as possible. It happened to me at my first dishwashing job at 13 years old and I've seen it a few dozen times since.
  - MattGaiser 5y ago
    Complicated question, as the company was structured so that each layer of management was its own "they" with its own budget. So wasted recruiter time was an externality not on their budgets. Management above line wasn't wasting any time so they did not care. Project accountability rested with the venture leads, not the development teams so there was little urgency to solve those problems either.
  - joezydeco 5y ago
    patio11 called it right: "The explosive growth of the tech sector keeps average age down and depresses average wages. Compared to industries which existed in materially the same form in 1970, we have a stupidly compressed experience spectrum: 5+ years rounds to "senior." This is not a joke." [1] So companies routinely comb for a "senior" person but the salary is always a mismatch. I have 25+ years under my belt but the companies that approach me expect a 5-year compensation arc and can't understand what the problem is. [1] https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/936615043126370306.html https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/936615043126370306.html
- 5y ago
giantg2 5y ago
They are evergreen listing for my company. They do have some mid-level and entry level, but certainly not as much as senior. We're even known for value shopping new grads to save costs, so I assume the ratio is even worse at other companies.
rmk 5y ago
The definition of "Senior" has now changed to "has > 5 years of experience". Combine this with the tendency of people to move every two years (because companies rarely keep up with the market), and you can see that "Senior" casts a wide net. It essentially includes people who may have seen maybe one major iteration of a product, perhaps none. In my opinion, that basically translates to a junior.
- rocgf 5y ago
  Well, that is a highly subjective opinion. As with everything, moving every 2 years has pros and cons. The flip side of what you said is that a person who spent >5 years at the same company has only really seen a limited number of problems, methodologies, technology stack. And that could also count as "junior", right?
  - gumby 5y ago
    The five years is the issue, imho. As I sometime put it: this role needs someone who’s made a lot of mistakes on someone else’s dime.
lostphilosopher 5y ago
I recall this coming up on HN before, but lots of big companies have special programs for hiring jr / entry level engineers. Usually, these are integrated with university and boot camp programs the company has a relationship with. Those roles exist and are being hired for, just through a different process. Another factor is that if you’re cleared to hire someone at a sr salary you can probably hire at a jr salary if you find someone, but probably can’t go the other way. Also keep in mind HR salary bands can go out of date fast in the tech market and you may have to open a sr role in your system to get the range you need to get even an entry/mid level candidate.
bradlys 5y ago
So - just in case anyone doesn't know this - companies put up listings even if they're not hiring. Do you know why? 1) Creates an image that they're always hiring and growing (should be self-explanatory) 2) If some holy amazing engineer applies and they can get them for bottom $ - it was basically no cost to get them. Glad to fill you in on a very common practice.

by qchris 5y ago

stefanba3 5y ago

In my (very long) experience, companies routinely post for Sr. Engineer where they would gladly take a less experienced person they liked.

brailsafe 5y ago

This holds up in my recent search. I just apply to these anyway, because what they define as senior might be totally different between companies.

g051051 5y ago
Yeah, most of the "senior" positions I see state that they want 5 or so years experience.
- zepolen 5y ago
  There are seniors with 5 years of proper experience that will run circles around the seniors that have 15 years doing the same 1 year of experience.
  - brailsafe 5y ago
    I guess it probably depends what you mean by "running circles around".

MattGaiser 5y ago

My last org just wanted one senior software engineer. Just one. They couldn't find one as the salary sucked, despite interviewing about a dozen over 6 months.

willcipriano 5y ago
> despite interviewing about a dozen over 6 months Did they really want one? I'd wager that if they took those six months of interviews, job ads and recruiter time and instead took that money, added it to the salary they are planning on offering (say divided by the average tenure in that role at your company) and threw up a post on the monthly "Who is hiring" thread here they could've found someone. A common tactic is to say "Oh, we are looking for the right person we just can't find them!" when the rest of the team picks up the workload of the exited employee and to keep that up as long as possible. It happened to me at my first dishwashing job at 13 years old and I've seen it a few dozen times since.
- MattGaiser 5y ago
  Complicated question, as the company was structured so that each layer of management was its own "they" with its own budget. So wasted recruiter time was an externality not on their budgets. Management above line wasn't wasting any time so they did not care. Project accountability rested with the venture leads, not the development teams so there was little urgency to solve those problems either.
- joezydeco 5y ago
  patio11 called it right: "The explosive growth of the tech sector keeps average age down and depresses average wages. Compared to industries which existed in materially the same form in 1970, we have a stupidly compressed experience spectrum: 5+ years rounds to "senior." This is not a joke." [1] So companies routinely comb for a "senior" person but the salary is always a mismatch. I have 25+ years under my belt but the companies that approach me expect a 5-year compensation arc and can't understand what the problem is. [1] https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/936615043126370306.html https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/936615043126370306.html
5y ago

giantg2 5y ago

They are evergreen listing for my company. They do have some mid-level and entry level, but certainly not as much as senior. We're even known for value shopping new grads to save costs, so I assume the ratio is even worse at other companies.

rmk 5y ago

The definition of "Senior" has now changed to "has > 5 years of experience". Combine this with the tendency of people to move every two years (because companies rarely keep up with the market), and you can see that "Senior" casts a wide net. It essentially includes people who may have seen maybe one major iteration of a product, perhaps none. In my opinion, that basically translates to a junior.

rocgf 5y ago
Well, that is a highly subjective opinion. As with everything, moving every 2 years has pros and cons. The flip side of what you said is that a person who spent >5 years at the same company has only really seen a limited number of problems, methodologies, technology stack. And that could also count as "junior", right?
- gumby 5y ago
  The five years is the issue, imho. As I sometime put it: this role needs someone who’s made a lot of mistakes on someone else’s dime.

lostphilosopher 5y ago

I recall this coming up on HN before, but lots of big companies have special programs for hiring jr / entry level engineers. Usually, these are integrated with university and boot camp programs the company has a relationship with. Those roles exist and are being hired for, just through a different process. Another factor is that if you’re cleared to hire someone at a sr salary you can probably hire at a jr salary if you find someone, but probably can’t go the other way. Also keep in mind HR salary bands can go out of date fast in the tech market and you may have to open a sr role in your system to get the range you need to get even an entry/mid level candidate.

bradlys 5y ago

So - just in case anyone doesn't know this - companies put up listings even if they're not hiring. Do you know why? 1) Creates an image that they're always hiring and growing (should be self-explanatory) 2) If some holy amazing engineer applies and they can get them for bottom $ - it was basically no cost to get them. Glad to fill you in on a very common practice.