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Can't read German, but I'm going to assume the channels in question are full of neo-Nazis. If that's the case then this isn't anything particularly new; Germany

Can't read German, but I'm going to assume the channels in question are full of neo-Nazis. If that's the case then this isn't anything particularly new; Germany's constitution explicitly denies freedom of speech to Nazis. I don't find this particularly objectionable on it's own; Nazis and neo-Nazis never believed in free speech to begin with. However, we should still remain wary of false positives or scope creep beyond this narrow carve-out.

hutzlibu 5y ago
"Germany's constitution explicitly denies freedom of speech to Nazis." Not exactly like this. You are allowed to speak your mind as a Nazi. You may say you are a Nazi and also say why you think they are superior etc. blablabla. You are not allowed, to wear certain symbols of NS times (swastika and co) and you are not allowed to deny that the holocaust happened and to glorify certain SS organisations.
- sascha_sl 5y ago
  While it is not the constitution, but the criminal code, being a nazi without at least a basic veil of decency will get you jailed for publicly voicing your beliefs: Whosoever, in a manner capable of disturbing the public peace: incites hatred against a national, racial, religious group or a group defined by their ethnic origins, against segments of the population or individuals because of their belonging to one of the aforementioned groups or segments of the population or calls for violent or arbitrary measures against them; or assaults the human dignity of others by insulting, maliciously maligning an aforementioned group, segments of the population or individuals because of their belonging to one of the aforementioned groups or segments of the population, or defaming segments of the population, shall be liable to imprisonment from three months to five years. (§ 130 StGB Volksverhetzung) What you were referencing is §86 and §86a StGB.
  - hutzlibu 5y ago
    Well, in theory you can also go to jail, for saying you think the catholic church is a organisation of criminal pedophiles. (blasphemie paragraph) Does not happen in reality, though. There are Nazis in jail though for denying the holocaust (Horst Mahler) and for trying to incite violence (Landser). Not for expressing their nazi ideology, but for direct calls for murder.
    - sascha_sl 5y ago
      Plenty of NDP functionaries (and some AfD too) were fined or are on parole for Volksverhetzung. Just because it doesn't usually escalate into jail time doesn't mean the law is not being applied.[1] [1]: https://dejure.org/dienste/lex/StGB/130/1.html https://dejure.org/dienste/lex/StGB/130/1.html
- YEwSdObPQT 5y ago
  So you aren't allowed to speak freely and they are controlling what people can and can't wear? So they do deny freedom of speech and freedom of expression to people that the government doesn't like (in this case Neo-Nazis). The amount of mental gymnastics people do is astounding.
  - hutzlibu 5y ago
    "So they do deny freedom of speech and freedom of expression to people that the government doesn't like " Of course they do, every state on earth limits freedom of speech. In germany regarding certain topics even more so. But nazis are still allowed to express their ideology. This is a difference to a time, when also this was forbidden. (for example in the NS area)
    - YEwSdObPQT 5y ago
      [flagged]
      - hutzlibu 5y ago
        "It is very simple really. " Is it? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30289162 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30289162 You don't think, there are limits to the things I should be allowed to say about you? Or about the things I think other people should do to you? (are you aware, that there is a difference btw. between literally killing people and people dying of starvation because of incompetence? Apparently not.) But I actually do think, the limits should be as small as possible and for all I care, the nazis should be free to have their swastikas Tattoo to their front head.
        YEwSdObPQT 5y ago
        > You don't think, there are limits to the things I should be allowed to say about you? No. The only concession I would consider is a call to violence if there is an real and immediate threat. Not internet death threats. The second I may concede would be defamation under a very strict standard e.g. You were claiming someone broke a law. > Or about the things I think other people should do to you? People can say anything they like to me or about me. What they cannot do is vandalise my property, take my property or assault me. > (are you aware, that there is a difference btw. between literally killing people and people dying of starvation because of incompetence? Apparently not.) If you are talking about the Communists. The communists killed and imprisoned a huge number of people. Also some of the famines were entirely predictable and in some cases were deliberate.
sascha_sl 5y ago
They're certainly very adjacent, but the general trend is more into conspiracy theorists / new world order and anti-corona measures with a tendency to call for violence.
mtmail 5y ago
> Can't read German, but I'm going to assume Reading the article leads to a better discussion. Link to translated article https://netzpolitik-org.translate.goog/2022/nach-gespraechen-mit-bundesregierung-telegram-sperrt-erstmals-kanaele-in-deutschland-wegen-lokalen-gesetzesverstoessen/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp https://netzpolitik-org.translate.goog/2022/nach-gespraechen...
- kmeisthax 5y ago
  My experience with machine translation is that it's unreliable at best and wholly unfit for purpose at worst. In this case, I'd rather known ignorance over being misled.
martin_a 5y ago
It's an unholy mixture. It started with critique against the restrictions due to Covid 19, but it escalated from that point on. Comparison of unvaccinated people and jews under the Nazi regime are what's happening in some of those Telegram channels these days and that's against german law, yes.
- mschuster91 5y ago
  Many of the Telegram channels of the covid-deniers actually escalated to open calls for murder, not just antisemitic comparisons (which are bad enough on themselves).
gtsop 5y ago
Although your statement is alright, the big thing here isn't nazis' free speech in particular, but censorship on a platform that is being sold as a privacy saver. Local laws may change from place to place. What is maybe reasonable in place A (and we may both agree with) may not be reasonable in place B

hutzlibu 5y ago

"Germany's constitution explicitly denies freedom of speech to Nazis." Not exactly like this. You are allowed to speak your mind as a Nazi. You may say you are a Nazi and also say why you think they are superior etc. blablabla. You are not allowed, to wear certain symbols of NS times (swastika and co) and you are not allowed to deny that the holocaust happened and to glorify certain SS organisations.

sascha_sl 5y ago
While it is not the constitution, but the criminal code, being a nazi without at least a basic veil of decency will get you jailed for publicly voicing your beliefs: Whosoever, in a manner capable of disturbing the public peace: incites hatred against a national, racial, religious group or a group defined by their ethnic origins, against segments of the population or individuals because of their belonging to one of the aforementioned groups or segments of the population or calls for violent or arbitrary measures against them; or assaults the human dignity of others by insulting, maliciously maligning an aforementioned group, segments of the population or individuals because of their belonging to one of the aforementioned groups or segments of the population, or defaming segments of the population, shall be liable to imprisonment from three months to five years. (§ 130 StGB Volksverhetzung) What you were referencing is §86 and §86a StGB.
- hutzlibu 5y ago
  Well, in theory you can also go to jail, for saying you think the catholic church is a organisation of criminal pedophiles. (blasphemie paragraph) Does not happen in reality, though. There are Nazis in jail though for denying the holocaust (Horst Mahler) and for trying to incite violence (Landser). Not for expressing their nazi ideology, but for direct calls for murder.
  - sascha_sl 5y ago
    Plenty of NDP functionaries (and some AfD too) were fined or are on parole for Volksverhetzung. Just because it doesn't usually escalate into jail time doesn't mean the law is not being applied.[1] [1]: https://dejure.org/dienste/lex/StGB/130/1.html https://dejure.org/dienste/lex/StGB/130/1.html
YEwSdObPQT 5y ago
So you aren't allowed to speak freely and they are controlling what people can and can't wear? So they do deny freedom of speech and freedom of expression to people that the government doesn't like (in this case Neo-Nazis). The amount of mental gymnastics people do is astounding.
- hutzlibu 5y ago
  "So they do deny freedom of speech and freedom of expression to people that the government doesn't like " Of course they do, every state on earth limits freedom of speech. In germany regarding certain topics even more so. But nazis are still allowed to express their ideology. This is a difference to a time, when also this was forbidden. (for example in the NS area)
  - YEwSdObPQT 5y ago
    [flagged]
    - hutzlibu 5y ago
      "It is very simple really. " Is it? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30289162 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30289162 You don't think, there are limits to the things I should be allowed to say about you? Or about the things I think other people should do to you? (are you aware, that there is a difference btw. between literally killing people and people dying of starvation because of incompetence? Apparently not.) But I actually do think, the limits should be as small as possible and for all I care, the nazis should be free to have their swastikas Tattoo to their front head.
      - YEwSdObPQT 5y ago
        > You don't think, there are limits to the things I should be allowed to say about you? No. The only concession I would consider is a call to violence if there is an real and immediate threat. Not internet death threats. The second I may concede would be defamation under a very strict standard e.g. You were claiming someone broke a law. > Or about the things I think other people should do to you? People can say anything they like to me or about me. What they cannot do is vandalise my property, take my property or assault me. > (are you aware, that there is a difference btw. between literally killing people and people dying of starvation because of incompetence? Apparently not.) If you are talking about the Communists. The communists killed and imprisoned a huge number of people. Also some of the famines were entirely predictable and in some cases were deliberate.

sascha_sl 5y ago

They're certainly very adjacent, but the general trend is more into conspiracy theorists / new world order and anti-corona measures with a tendency to call for violence.

mtmail 5y ago

> Can't read German, but I'm going to assume Reading the article leads to a better discussion. Link to translated article https://netzpolitik-org.translate.goog/2022/nach-gespraechen-mit-bundesregierung-telegram-sperrt-erstmals-kanaele-in-deutschland-wegen-lokalen-gesetzesverstoessen/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp https://netzpolitik-org.translate.goog/2022/nach-gespraechen...

kmeisthax 5y ago
My experience with machine translation is that it's unreliable at best and wholly unfit for purpose at worst. In this case, I'd rather known ignorance over being misled.

martin_a 5y ago

It's an unholy mixture. It started with critique against the restrictions due to Covid 19, but it escalated from that point on. Comparison of unvaccinated people and jews under the Nazi regime are what's happening in some of those Telegram channels these days and that's against german law, yes.

mschuster91 5y ago
Many of the Telegram channels of the covid-deniers actually escalated to open calls for murder, not just antisemitic comparisons (which are bad enough on themselves).

gtsop 5y ago

Although your statement is alright, the big thing here isn't nazis' free speech in particular, but censorship on a platform that is being sold as a privacy saver. Local laws may change from place to place. What is maybe reasonable in place A (and we may both agree with) may not be reasonable in place B