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The article is written in German, but with a Google Translate you can understand the just of it. Apparently Telegram added a new blocking system based on phone

The article is written in German, but with a Google Translate you can understand the just of it. Apparently Telegram added a new blocking system based on phone numbers, sorta a geo-blocking thing, and people with German phone numbers registered on their Telegram accounts aren't able to access those blocked channels. Also, unlike the previous block this one applies even to the users who are using the app downloaded directly from Telegram site and not the iOS/Google Play version. The blocking happens after German minister of interior had a meeting with Telegram directors a few days ago.

doowop 5y ago
The headline of your post is very misleading since the linked articles headline translates to “Telegram blocks(!) channels”, not cencors. By mistranslating this to “censoring” you are using the language of those who are actively distributing fake news. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, I hope that you’ll correct the title of the post.
A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
I never used Telegram. How do channels work? Does Telegram has that kind of visibility into what is happening in them?
- pepesza 5y ago
  Telegram does not have any meaningful e2e encryption (apart from 1-1 on-demand stuff nobody uses). So yes, everything is visible to Telegram.
  - hutzlibu 5y ago
    "(apart from 1-1 on-demand stuff nobody uses). " It gets used. Because this secret chat does not save its history, it leaves no trace on the devive. So people who want to cheat on their partner, but know that their partner checks their mobile at times even installed telegram because of this feature (and they do not know what e2e means). Surprisingly many people have this motivation. So many, that I know of persons who got problems with installing telegram, because their partner assumed - it was for this reason.
  - Aeolun 5y ago
    I don’t quite understand what the point of telegram is then? Is the only benefit it isn’t owned by Facebook?
    - Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
      There is no point in end to end encryption in public channels, so this specific criticism is not valid.
    - jeroenhd 5y ago
      > I don’t quite understand what the point of telegram is then? It's UX is far superior to any cross-platform competitor. On top of that, its client is open source and the servers have easy and free bot APIs. It also has channels, which broadcast your messages to followers and many secure competitors don't have such functionality. It's not encrypted, but as it turns out most people don't really care about that in practice. If they would, texting wouldn't be popular in places like the USA. That's probably why people go to Telegram instead of Signal, ease of use is more important than privacy for most, especially in group chats that are generally about what's for dinner.
    - theshrike79 5y ago
      Having E2EE in a large Telegram channel would be like having an E2EE Facebook group, subreddit or even a web forum. If something leaks, it's through users, not through someone listening in or MITMing the communication.
- JaimeThompson 5y ago
  Telegram has, as far as I know, no revenue model at all so they most likely are mining the heck out of the users and what they post.
  - tazjin 5y ago
    Telegram has ads as of a few months ago, because Durov can't personally fund it anymore at its current size. https://promote.telegram.org/ https://promote.telegram.org/
    - JaimeThompson 5y ago
      I haven't seen a single ad at all for some reason in the multiple groups I am in.
      - frollo 5y ago
        At the moment, ads are only displayed in public channels with at least 1.000 users, so they are still pretty rare to come by (like, I use Telegram regularly and only see them every other day). Plus, I've heard that some clients aren't supporting them yet (even if Telegram's stance is that every client should), so maybe you'll never see them.
- estranhosidade 5y ago
  As far as I understand: many people use Telegram channels as a sort of Twitter-like social media, since you can set the channel to publicly available and anyone with app can read what you wrote, and even interact with you through, like voting through giving your post an emoji or commenting on it (if you enabled comments).
- frollo 5y ago
  Channels are extremely public, in the sense that you can access them even without installing telegram [1] and there are websites which can generate RSS feeds for all the posts of a channel or things like that [2]. So this is not exactly a private conversation we're talking about, more like the printing of broadsheets to be nailed to every other house's wall. [1] For example, this is a post in Telegram's own public channel https://t.me/telegram/167 https://t.me/telegram/167 [2] For example, this two: https://tg.i-c-a.su/ https://tg.i-c-a.su/ and https://rss.app/rss-feed/create-Telegram-rss-feed https://rss.app/rss-feed/create-Telegram-rss-feed
pessimizer 5y ago
Probably makes sense. I'm not super familiar with Telegram, but to know a channel is doing stuff that's against German law probably means that someone with access to the channel reported it to authorities. Germany is also one of those countries that blanket bans particular groups/parties in general, which the US didn't really do until after 9/11. Banning a group chat isn't much different.
- mschuster91 5y ago
  > Probably makes sense. I'm not super familiar with Telegram, but to know a channel is doing stuff that's against German law probably means that someone with access to the channel reported it to authorities. Avocadolf's channels are public, you could access them on the Telegram web UI even without an account. The German government has tried to get the channel shut down for months now, after Hildmann fled the country and engaged in Holocaust denial (which is a crime here). The problem is that unlike all other major social networks, Telegram refuses to comply with German laws (in particular the NetzDG) and has refused to name a contact person for the authorities so that egregious violations could be stopped. I read an article that claimed the only form of contact between German authorities and Telegram used to be a bilateral anti-terror coordination with the US FBI, which makes sense given the common problem of radical Islamist terrorism.
  - Justsignedup 5y ago
    The challenge with Telegram is that it has server costs, but it has no income cash flow. They're experimenting. But overall its 100% investment money. And so if they cannot be tried criminally, there's no business loss if they can't take German cash. This is obviously an issue with Facebook who cares about cash quite a bit, or Reddit, or whatever. But not Telegram. So yeah. My guess is that at this point Germany is saying that this could fall into the criminal side of things, at which point Telegram would care.
    - tpoacher 5y ago
      I need a huge fact-check on this, but I seem to remember that while the "no cash flow" statement is trivially true, in practice isn't the investment capital already enough to cover several decades of funding?
t0bia_s 5y ago
Another reason to use Element (Matrix), where phone number is not required.
- Arnt 5y ago
  Does Matrix have groups like Telegram's? I thought Matrix was just a messenger app.
  - ls15 5y ago
    Matrix has "rooms".
    - Arnt 5y ago
      Do rooms work like a blog/feeds/readers? I thought they were more like Signal's groups.
      - ls15 5y ago
        I think threaded discussions are planned, but so far it is only for linear discussions.
        Arnt 5y ago
        That's very different from the relevant Telegram groups. Those function more like a blog on the web — non-subscribers can search for them, only the group's owner(s) can post, and everyone else can just read. And they work for very large audiences, 100k readers is no problem.
        ls15 5y ago
        I see. With matrix rooms it is possible to set permissions in a way that only the owner can send messages in that room. There are also large(-ish) rooms, such as #/room/#matrix:matrix.org with > 30k users, but I think threaded discussions would allow for a functionality that resembles a blog where subscribers can comment on articles. And there is a preview functionality that technically allows users to read public rooms without being subscribed. Of course Telegram is quite a bit more polished and fun to use than element or other matrix clients so far.
kyberias 5y ago
Gist of it.
viktorcode 5y ago
Telegram blocked calls to violence before, so technically it's nothing new.
stjohnswarts 5y ago
Well telegram has to abide by German law, otherwise authorities will seize all their assets in Germany (and maybe even Europe?) and shut them down and sue them international court for ignoring the will of a Nation. I don't think Telegram had much choice in the matter. Thanks for the summary.

doowop 5y ago

The headline of your post is very misleading since the linked articles headline translates to “Telegram blocks(!) channels”, not cencors. By mistranslating this to “censoring” you are using the language of those who are actively distributing fake news. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, I hope that you’ll correct the title of the post.

A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago

I never used Telegram. How do channels work? Does Telegram has that kind of visibility into what is happening in them?

pepesza 5y ago
Telegram does not have any meaningful e2e encryption (apart from 1-1 on-demand stuff nobody uses). So yes, everything is visible to Telegram.
- hutzlibu 5y ago
  "(apart from 1-1 on-demand stuff nobody uses). " It gets used. Because this secret chat does not save its history, it leaves no trace on the devive. So people who want to cheat on their partner, but know that their partner checks their mobile at times even installed telegram because of this feature (and they do not know what e2e means). Surprisingly many people have this motivation. So many, that I know of persons who got problems with installing telegram, because their partner assumed - it was for this reason.
- Aeolun 5y ago
  I don’t quite understand what the point of telegram is then? Is the only benefit it isn’t owned by Facebook?
  - Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
    There is no point in end to end encryption in public channels, so this specific criticism is not valid.
  - jeroenhd 5y ago
    > I don’t quite understand what the point of telegram is then? It's UX is far superior to any cross-platform competitor. On top of that, its client is open source and the servers have easy and free bot APIs. It also has channels, which broadcast your messages to followers and many secure competitors don't have such functionality. It's not encrypted, but as it turns out most people don't really care about that in practice. If they would, texting wouldn't be popular in places like the USA. That's probably why people go to Telegram instead of Signal, ease of use is more important than privacy for most, especially in group chats that are generally about what's for dinner.
  - theshrike79 5y ago
    Having E2EE in a large Telegram channel would be like having an E2EE Facebook group, subreddit or even a web forum. If something leaks, it's through users, not through someone listening in or MITMing the communication.
JaimeThompson 5y ago
Telegram has, as far as I know, no revenue model at all so they most likely are mining the heck out of the users and what they post.
- tazjin 5y ago
  Telegram has ads as of a few months ago, because Durov can't personally fund it anymore at its current size. https://promote.telegram.org/ https://promote.telegram.org/
  - JaimeThompson 5y ago
    I haven't seen a single ad at all for some reason in the multiple groups I am in.
    - frollo 5y ago
      At the moment, ads are only displayed in public channels with at least 1.000 users, so they are still pretty rare to come by (like, I use Telegram regularly and only see them every other day). Plus, I've heard that some clients aren't supporting them yet (even if Telegram's stance is that every client should), so maybe you'll never see them.
estranhosidade 5y ago
As far as I understand: many people use Telegram channels as a sort of Twitter-like social media, since you can set the channel to publicly available and anyone with app can read what you wrote, and even interact with you through, like voting through giving your post an emoji or commenting on it (if you enabled comments).
frollo 5y ago
Channels are extremely public, in the sense that you can access them even without installing telegram [1] and there are websites which can generate RSS feeds for all the posts of a channel or things like that [2]. So this is not exactly a private conversation we're talking about, more like the printing of broadsheets to be nailed to every other house's wall. [1] For example, this is a post in Telegram's own public channel https://t.me/telegram/167 https://t.me/telegram/167 [2] For example, this two: https://tg.i-c-a.su/ https://tg.i-c-a.su/ and https://rss.app/rss-feed/create-Telegram-rss-feed https://rss.app/rss-feed/create-Telegram-rss-feed

pessimizer 5y ago

Probably makes sense. I'm not super familiar with Telegram, but to know a channel is doing stuff that's against German law probably means that someone with access to the channel reported it to authorities. Germany is also one of those countries that blanket bans particular groups/parties in general, which the US didn't really do until after 9/11. Banning a group chat isn't much different.

mschuster91 5y ago
> Probably makes sense. I'm not super familiar with Telegram, but to know a channel is doing stuff that's against German law probably means that someone with access to the channel reported it to authorities. Avocadolf's channels are public, you could access them on the Telegram web UI even without an account. The German government has tried to get the channel shut down for months now, after Hildmann fled the country and engaged in Holocaust denial (which is a crime here). The problem is that unlike all other major social networks, Telegram refuses to comply with German laws (in particular the NetzDG) and has refused to name a contact person for the authorities so that egregious violations could be stopped. I read an article that claimed the only form of contact between German authorities and Telegram used to be a bilateral anti-terror coordination with the US FBI, which makes sense given the common problem of radical Islamist terrorism.
- Justsignedup 5y ago
  The challenge with Telegram is that it has server costs, but it has no income cash flow. They're experimenting. But overall its 100% investment money. And so if they cannot be tried criminally, there's no business loss if they can't take German cash. This is obviously an issue with Facebook who cares about cash quite a bit, or Reddit, or whatever. But not Telegram. So yeah. My guess is that at this point Germany is saying that this could fall into the criminal side of things, at which point Telegram would care.
  - tpoacher 5y ago
    I need a huge fact-check on this, but I seem to remember that while the "no cash flow" statement is trivially true, in practice isn't the investment capital already enough to cover several decades of funding?

t0bia_s 5y ago

Another reason to use Element (Matrix), where phone number is not required.

Arnt 5y ago
Does Matrix have groups like Telegram's? I thought Matrix was just a messenger app.
- ls15 5y ago
  Matrix has "rooms".
  - Arnt 5y ago
    Do rooms work like a blog/feeds/readers? I thought they were more like Signal's groups.
    - ls15 5y ago
      I think threaded discussions are planned, but so far it is only for linear discussions.
      - Arnt 5y ago
        That's very different from the relevant Telegram groups. Those function more like a blog on the web — non-subscribers can search for them, only the group's owner(s) can post, and everyone else can just read. And they work for very large audiences, 100k readers is no problem.
        ls15 5y ago
        I see. With matrix rooms it is possible to set permissions in a way that only the owner can send messages in that room. There are also large(-ish) rooms, such as #/room/#matrix:matrix.org with > 30k users, but I think threaded discussions would allow for a functionality that resembles a blog where subscribers can comment on articles. And there is a preview functionality that technically allows users to read public rooms without being subscribed. Of course Telegram is quite a bit more polished and fun to use than element or other matrix clients so far.

kyberias 5y ago

Gist of it.

viktorcode 5y ago

Telegram blocked calls to violence before, so technically it's nothing new.

stjohnswarts 5y ago

Well telegram has to abide by German law, otherwise authorities will seize all their assets in Germany (and maybe even Europe?) and shut them down and sue them international court for ignoring the will of a Nation. I don't think Telegram had much choice in the matter. Thanks for the summary.