8 ms·

Daily chart: A new low for global democracy

helsinkiandrew 5y ago
https://web.archive.org/web/20220210061127/https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2022/02/09/a-new-low-for-global-democracy https://web.archive.org/web/20220210061127/https://www.econo...
llamataboot 5y ago
Funny how a strong social safety net and lack of inequality tend to make societies with a norm of participation and solidarity. The Scandinavian countries aren't all the same, are dealing with their own problems of homogeneity and integration challenges, etc - but always funny when the Economist doesn't say the quiet part out loud.
- rnk 5y ago
  US one step behind Canada on the chart, sounds right. I'm saying that based on current attempts to change laws making it harder to vote here and also changes so state government could override election results.
- beebmam 5y ago
  I wouldn't presume causation in that direction. It could be that participation and solidarity leads to strong social safety net and egalitarian policies. Or maybe there are other causes of both
- reilly3000 5y ago
  They have never been shy about their opinions or coy about projecting them.
hamilyon2 5y ago
https://outline.com/s9zZUq https://outline.com/s9zZUq
nonrandomstring 5y ago
To what degree does technology play a part in these changes? For the two main events cited, as I recall it Myanmar resulted from Facebook wilfully ignoring (indeed fuelling) a sectarian schism, and the Afghan Army basically conceded a post-withdrawal "peaceful Taliban takeover" by ad-hoc WhatsApp diplomacy, making a mockery of state power by an end-run around official communications. Obviously there are other geopolitical forces at work, but what a turnaround from the Arab Spring when tech seemed to be spreading democracy. Schniere was right about the phase lag between technology empowering progressive actors and bolstering incumbent power. But something else is going on. We seem to be too comfortable funding and propagating what we know to be oppressive technologies, as the NSO debacle illustrates all too well. Knowing that technology is very much NOT neutral, how can we fund tech that has a best chance of net positive outcomes for democracy? Aren't projects Tor, IPFS or Librem Phones the best "all round" horses to back? As well as an Eco/Carbon rating ought we to give technologies a "democracy rating"?
- Cthulhu_ 5y ago
  > To what degree does technology play a part in these changes? Pretty big; a lot more people are connected now, which allows for social media propaganda companies like Cambridge Analytica (which is now a fall guy; there are much more) to do campaigns to influence democracy. Examples are: - Pushing the 'us vs them' mentality; you see this in many different areas, from left vs right, TERFS vs the rest, racial divides, but also things like flat earthers and anti-vaxxers (the pseudoscience division). This makes people fight among themselves while the higher ups take more power and money for themselves. - Voter manipulation. There have been campaigns - mainly aimed at PoC - that told them their vote is wasted whatever they vote on, that they should vote for the 3rd candidate (nothing wrong with that, if only they had a chance in the broken US voting system), or even giving them misinformation about the date they should go vote or how to (incorrectly) vote by mail. This is pushed by the republicans, because PoC represent less than 10% of their voter base; it's better for the RNC to have people not vote than vote for the democrats. Tor and co are great initiatives in theory, unfortunately they have been ruined by criminals on the one hand, and law enforcement honeypots on the other; there are plenty of instances by now of e.g. 'secure' phone networks getting taken over by law enforcement, causing for example the discovery of organized crime torture rooms: https://nos-nl.translate.goog/artikel/2339849-politie-geeft-meer-details-over-martelcontainers-wouwse-plantage?_x_tr_sl=nl&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=nl&_x_tr_pto=wapp https://nos-nl.translate.goog/artikel/2339849-politie-geeft-... (video doesn't seem to work on google translate: direct link https://nos.nl/artikel/2339849-politie-geeft-meer-details-over-martelcontainers-wouwse-plantage https://nos.nl/artikel/2339849-politie-geeft-meer-details-ov... )
ComradePhil 5y ago
Here's why this is complete and absolute nonsense fabricated for political reasons. The only people who think Scandinavian countries are "democracies" are those who haven't read their constitutions... and that includes most of their natives. * Their monarchs have absolute power, the monarchs give right to the parliament to exist for example * The monarch can decide who gets to run for elections * The monarch can veto against any legal decision All of them do have elections and they do appear to have some impact on policies... but the supreme power is hidden and made to look ceremonial to the masses when it is totally not the case.
- brtkdotse 5y ago
  Not sure what you're smoking, but I challenge you to find _one_ instance of any of the things you mentioned happening in modern time.
- iforgotpassword 5y ago
  How often do those monarchs make use of that power and to what extend? Does it have negative impact on normal people?
  - sandgiant 5y ago
    Last time in Denmark was in 1920 [1]. It almost abolished the monarchy at the time. Since then no other monarch have dared interfere with politics. Today all political interactions are purely ceremonial. The monarchy is still part of the power elite, and of ceremonial importance in domestic and international relations, but they have no direct power over political decisions or elections. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_X_of_Denmark#Easter_Crisis_of_1920 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_X_of_Denmark#Easter_...
  - lozenge 5y ago
    I can think of a few recent examples. The 1975 Australian constitutional crisis, where the Governor General (granted power by the Queen) dismissed the Prime Minister. In 2019, when the British PM suspended Parliament - a provision that would not exist without a Monarchy, as it was technically done by the Queen on the PM s advice. This was later ruled illegal but there was no way to right the wrong. Recently, Queen's Consent was exposed as a secret process where laws are changed in secret before coming to Parliament to gain the Queen's approval. One example being that the Queen can hire without complying with laws against race discrimination. She also has exceptions from environmental and COVID legislation. Checking Wikipedia, it looks like Queens Consent was withheld in 1990 preventing debate of reforming the House of Lords. Probably the world's least democratic legislative chamber of any democracy.
colordrops 5y ago
It goes to show the biases of The Economist that Israel is marked as a "flawed democracy" rather than a "hybrid regime". Israel is a hybrid regime if there ever was one.
- bronzeage 5y ago
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - rob74 5y ago
    I'm not that deeply involved, but I find it a bit schizophrenic that on one hand Israel disposes of the Palestinian territories as it pleases (founding settlements in the West Bank, building a wall around the Gaza Strip), but on the other hand when it encounters stuff it doesn't want to deal with, it points to the Palestinians "self-governing" themselves...
  - colordrops 5y ago
    Could your statement be any more racist, jeez. Isn't this sort of comment explicitly disallowed on HN?
    - WalterGR 5y ago
      What’s sad is that user appears to be shadow-banned, which means their comments are hidden by default - until enough people “vouch” for them. So not only did someone post that dreck, enough people vouched for it that it’s no longer hidden. I hope there’s another explanation.
      - oefrha 5y ago
        I sent an email just now. Whoever vouched for it will have their privilege revoked, hopefully.
      - 5y ago
sam_lowry_ 5y ago
The map feels somewhat outdated. Belarus is on par with North Korea since 2020, Russia became much less democratic in 2021 and continues its descent in 2022. Poland and Hungary are both hybrid regimes now, with Hungary leaning on the authoritarian side.
- renw0rp 5y ago
  What is the difference between democracy and hybrid regime? Even though I don't like polish government, I really don't think the country is not democratic (but if course all depends on the definitions). I would even argue that many western countries are less democratic after seeing for example some videos from protests in the Netherlands[0] [0] https://youtu.be/VICeJG_bayg https://youtu.be/VICeJG_bayg
  - trasz 5y ago
    Netherlands still have proper, independent courts. Poland doesn’t.
  - prometheon1 5y ago
    Inferring data based on youtube videos is quite tricky, as the algorithm favors more sensational data points. Protesting in the Netherlands is great as long as you ask for permission (which is not difficult to get) and don't go rioting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNnK5q9pfQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNnK5q9pfQ
    - renw0rp 5y ago
      I'm missing this information from the news, so maybe you could elaborate if you know the answer. Didn't they apply for the permission or it's not as easy as you claim (at least in the times of COVID and lockdowns)?
  - foxfluff 5y ago
    Arguably democracy is tyranny of the majority against a minority. Sometimes this gets people riled up enough to start an illegal protest, which the authorities try to snuff out. I don't think videos of protest say much about how democratic a country is. It just demonstrates a shortcoming of democracy.
LatteLazy 5y ago
Sorry to get political but... Democracy has been a disaster for my country (the UK) for the last 30 years. It's given us endless bad policy. It's wrecking every institution that made the UK livable. It's increased taxes and cut spending on anything not for small select groups. We're going backwards socially. I don't think ye-olde, people voting by fptp for someone to represent them on a party basis, for years when they can't actually tell you policies or names of those representatives democracy works anymore. Maybe social media or just media in general has broken it. Maybe people have just gotten really shitty. But it's not working...
- echevil 5y ago
  Democracy is overrated, period
  - rjtavares 5y ago
    In the sense that some people treat it as perfect, yes. But, as they say, it's the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried.
    - echevil 5y ago
      Nah, that is also bogus claim shifting people's attention away from what really matters. A government ultimately needs to deliver policies benefitial for the country and its people. It is a failure if it cannot do that, not matter how "democratic" it is, like UK or current US. Being more "democratic" won't change anything
- sam_lowry_ 5y ago
  I understand your frustraction with British democratic processes, but you should probably travel to North Korea or Belarus once to see how UK fares on the world scale. Perspective matters.
  - colordrops 5y ago
    I've been to NK, and it's as bad as they say. I still think US democracy is abhorrent. It's not a perspective or relativistic thing. Democracy is not a competition.
andi999 5y ago
So from rank 22 or so the countries are labeled 'flawed democracy', arent the standards a bit too high?
- Cthulhu_ 5y ago
  So instead of making things better you think lowering the standards is a solution? Just another data point showing that democracy and morals are backsliding fast.
pingsl 5y ago
This article is behind a paywall. I know there is a Chrome extension called "Bypass Paywalls". But I really don't want to use it, as it breaks the business model of the writers.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

https://web.archive.org/web/20220210061127/https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2022/02/09/a-new-low-for-global-democracy https://web.archive.org/web/20220210061127/https://www.econo...

llamataboot 5y ago

Funny how a strong social safety net and lack of inequality tend to make societies with a norm of participation and solidarity. The Scandinavian countries aren't all the same, are dealing with their own problems of homogeneity and integration challenges, etc - but always funny when the Economist doesn't say the quiet part out loud.

rnk 5y ago
US one step behind Canada on the chart, sounds right. I'm saying that based on current attempts to change laws making it harder to vote here and also changes so state government could override election results.
beebmam 5y ago
I wouldn't presume causation in that direction. It could be that participation and solidarity leads to strong social safety net and egalitarian policies. Or maybe there are other causes of both
reilly3000 5y ago
They have never been shy about their opinions or coy about projecting them.

hamilyon2 5y ago

https://outline.com/s9zZUq https://outline.com/s9zZUq

nonrandomstring 5y ago

To what degree does technology play a part in these changes? For the two main events cited, as I recall it Myanmar resulted from Facebook wilfully ignoring (indeed fuelling) a sectarian schism, and the Afghan Army basically conceded a post-withdrawal "peaceful Taliban takeover" by ad-hoc WhatsApp diplomacy, making a mockery of state power by an end-run around official communications. Obviously there are other geopolitical forces at work, but what a turnaround from the Arab Spring when tech seemed to be spreading democracy. Schniere was right about the phase lag between technology empowering progressive actors and bolstering incumbent power. But something else is going on. We seem to be too comfortable funding and propagating what we know to be oppressive technologies, as the NSO debacle illustrates all too well. Knowing that technology is very much NOT neutral, how can we fund tech that has a best chance of net positive outcomes for democracy? Aren't projects Tor, IPFS or Librem Phones the best "all round" horses to back? As well as an Eco/Carbon rating ought we to give technologies a "democracy rating"?

Cthulhu_ 5y ago
> To what degree does technology play a part in these changes? Pretty big; a lot more people are connected now, which allows for social media propaganda companies like Cambridge Analytica (which is now a fall guy; there are much more) to do campaigns to influence democracy. Examples are: - Pushing the 'us vs them' mentality; you see this in many different areas, from left vs right, TERFS vs the rest, racial divides, but also things like flat earthers and anti-vaxxers (the pseudoscience division). This makes people fight among themselves while the higher ups take more power and money for themselves. - Voter manipulation. There have been campaigns - mainly aimed at PoC - that told them their vote is wasted whatever they vote on, that they should vote for the 3rd candidate (nothing wrong with that, if only they had a chance in the broken US voting system), or even giving them misinformation about the date they should go vote or how to (incorrectly) vote by mail. This is pushed by the republicans, because PoC represent less than 10% of their voter base; it's better for the RNC to have people not vote than vote for the democrats. Tor and co are great initiatives in theory, unfortunately they have been ruined by criminals on the one hand, and law enforcement honeypots on the other; there are plenty of instances by now of e.g. 'secure' phone networks getting taken over by law enforcement, causing for example the discovery of organized crime torture rooms: https://nos-nl.translate.goog/artikel/2339849-politie-geeft-meer-details-over-martelcontainers-wouwse-plantage?_x_tr_sl=nl&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=nl&_x_tr_pto=wapp https://nos-nl.translate.goog/artikel/2339849-politie-geeft-... (video doesn't seem to work on google translate: direct link https://nos.nl/artikel/2339849-politie-geeft-meer-details-over-martelcontainers-wouwse-plantage https://nos.nl/artikel/2339849-politie-geeft-meer-details-ov... )

ComradePhil 5y ago

Here's why this is complete and absolute nonsense fabricated for political reasons. The only people who think Scandinavian countries are "democracies" are those who haven't read their constitutions... and that includes most of their natives. * Their monarchs have absolute power, the monarchs give right to the parliament to exist for example * The monarch can decide who gets to run for elections * The monarch can veto against any legal decision All of them do have elections and they do appear to have some impact on policies... but the supreme power is hidden and made to look ceremonial to the masses when it is totally not the case.

brtkdotse 5y ago
Not sure what you're smoking, but I challenge you to find _one_ instance of any of the things you mentioned happening in modern time.
iforgotpassword 5y ago
How often do those monarchs make use of that power and to what extend? Does it have negative impact on normal people?
- sandgiant 5y ago
  Last time in Denmark was in 1920 [1]. It almost abolished the monarchy at the time. Since then no other monarch have dared interfere with politics. Today all political interactions are purely ceremonial. The monarchy is still part of the power elite, and of ceremonial importance in domestic and international relations, but they have no direct power over political decisions or elections. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_X_of_Denmark#Easter_Crisis_of_1920 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_X_of_Denmark#Easter_...
- lozenge 5y ago
  I can think of a few recent examples. The 1975 Australian constitutional crisis, where the Governor General (granted power by the Queen) dismissed the Prime Minister. In 2019, when the British PM suspended Parliament - a provision that would not exist without a Monarchy, as it was technically done by the Queen on the PM s advice. This was later ruled illegal but there was no way to right the wrong. Recently, Queen's Consent was exposed as a secret process where laws are changed in secret before coming to Parliament to gain the Queen's approval. One example being that the Queen can hire without complying with laws against race discrimination. She also has exceptions from environmental and COVID legislation. Checking Wikipedia, it looks like Queens Consent was withheld in 1990 preventing debate of reforming the House of Lords. Probably the world's least democratic legislative chamber of any democracy.

colordrops 5y ago

It goes to show the biases of The Economist that Israel is marked as a "flawed democracy" rather than a "hybrid regime". Israel is a hybrid regime if there ever was one.

bronzeage 5y ago
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- rob74 5y ago
  I'm not that deeply involved, but I find it a bit schizophrenic that on one hand Israel disposes of the Palestinian territories as it pleases (founding settlements in the West Bank, building a wall around the Gaza Strip), but on the other hand when it encounters stuff it doesn't want to deal with, it points to the Palestinians "self-governing" themselves...
- colordrops 5y ago
  Could your statement be any more racist, jeez. Isn't this sort of comment explicitly disallowed on HN?
  - WalterGR 5y ago
    What’s sad is that user appears to be shadow-banned, which means their comments are hidden by default - until enough people “vouch” for them. So not only did someone post that dreck, enough people vouched for it that it’s no longer hidden. I hope there’s another explanation.
    - oefrha 5y ago
      I sent an email just now. Whoever vouched for it will have their privilege revoked, hopefully.
    - 5y ago

sam_lowry_ 5y ago

The map feels somewhat outdated. Belarus is on par with North Korea since 2020, Russia became much less democratic in 2021 and continues its descent in 2022. Poland and Hungary are both hybrid regimes now, with Hungary leaning on the authoritarian side.

renw0rp 5y ago
What is the difference between democracy and hybrid regime? Even though I don't like polish government, I really don't think the country is not democratic (but if course all depends on the definitions). I would even argue that many western countries are less democratic after seeing for example some videos from protests in the Netherlands[0] [0] https://youtu.be/VICeJG_bayg https://youtu.be/VICeJG_bayg
- trasz 5y ago
  Netherlands still have proper, independent courts. Poland doesn’t.
- prometheon1 5y ago
  Inferring data based on youtube videos is quite tricky, as the algorithm favors more sensational data points. Protesting in the Netherlands is great as long as you ask for permission (which is not difficult to get) and don't go rioting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNnK5q9pfQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNnK5q9pfQ
  - renw0rp 5y ago
    I'm missing this information from the news, so maybe you could elaborate if you know the answer. Didn't they apply for the permission or it's not as easy as you claim (at least in the times of COVID and lockdowns)?
- foxfluff 5y ago
  Arguably democracy is tyranny of the majority against a minority. Sometimes this gets people riled up enough to start an illegal protest, which the authorities try to snuff out. I don't think videos of protest say much about how democratic a country is. It just demonstrates a shortcoming of democracy.

LatteLazy 5y ago

Sorry to get political but... Democracy has been a disaster for my country (the UK) for the last 30 years. It's given us endless bad policy. It's wrecking every institution that made the UK livable. It's increased taxes and cut spending on anything not for small select groups. We're going backwards socially. I don't think ye-olde, people voting by fptp for someone to represent them on a party basis, for years when they can't actually tell you policies or names of those representatives democracy works anymore. Maybe social media or just media in general has broken it. Maybe people have just gotten really shitty. But it's not working...

echevil 5y ago
Democracy is overrated, period
- rjtavares 5y ago
  In the sense that some people treat it as perfect, yes. But, as they say, it's the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried.
  - echevil 5y ago
    Nah, that is also bogus claim shifting people's attention away from what really matters. A government ultimately needs to deliver policies benefitial for the country and its people. It is a failure if it cannot do that, not matter how "democratic" it is, like UK or current US. Being more "democratic" won't change anything
sam_lowry_ 5y ago
I understand your frustraction with British democratic processes, but you should probably travel to North Korea or Belarus once to see how UK fares on the world scale. Perspective matters.
- colordrops 5y ago
  I've been to NK, and it's as bad as they say. I still think US democracy is abhorrent. It's not a perspective or relativistic thing. Democracy is not a competition.

andi999 5y ago

So from rank 22 or so the countries are labeled 'flawed democracy', arent the standards a bit too high?

Cthulhu_ 5y ago
So instead of making things better you think lowering the standards is a solution? Just another data point showing that democracy and morals are backsliding fast.

pingsl 5y ago

This article is behind a paywall. I know there is a Chrome extension called "Bypass Paywalls". But I really don't want to use it, as it breaks the business model of the writers.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]