5 ms·

That's like saying Hawaii isn't America though. It's technically true but when saying something doesn't exist in America, I think raising Hawaii as an exceptio

That's like saying Hawaii isn't America though. It's technically true but when saying something doesn't exist in America, I think raising Hawaii as an exception is still valid or at least interesting. The reference to "Europe" was likely more about political Europe than geographical Europe.

js8 5y ago
Wouldn't Puerto Rico be a better analogy than Hawaii? Hawaii is more like Malta in EU, a full member state.
- seszett 5y ago
  Saint Barthélémy is closer to Hawaii in status. Puerto Rico doesn't have much representation at the federal level as far as I know, I'm not even sure if people there are full US citizens. People in Saint Barthélémy are just regular French and EU citizens who live far away from the mainland. The territory does have some degree of autonomy (more than other overseas départements) but still less so than a US state relative to the US federal government. In that, most French territories would have a status maybe more comparable to a county within a US state (afaiu the US system) than to a US state within the US. The whole comparison is a bit sketchy but France isn't a federal state and only New Caledonia and Polynesia have local legislation, all the rest of the country is very unitary in political and administrative aspects.
  - rosndo 5y ago
    Yep, I was in St Barth when Macron ordered countrywide lockdowns from his throne in Paris. I was really surprised to see all the local businesses immediately complying, they sure seem OK with being French.
  - cmurf 5y ago
    Puerto Ricans are full U.S. citizens. But it's complicated... https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2017-03-03/are-puerto-ricans-american-citizens https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2017-03-0...
  - nwallin 5y ago
    Puerto Ricans are natural born US citizens. They're eligible to be elected President, for instance, which is not a right granted to someone who petitions for and receives US citizenship, or a person born to a US citizen parent. Perhaps you're thinking of American Samoa, which does not automatically grant citizenship based upon being born there, but does grant US residency and a US passport. For instances, when there was all the talk about Barack Obama's birth certificate, it wouldn't have disqualified him as a candidate to claim his birthplace was in Puerto Rico. (See also John McCain, who was born in the Panama Canal Zone, which had a similar status to Puerty Rico, but distinct from American Samoa.) It would have disqualified his candidacy if they were able to prove he was born in Kenya or American Samoa, which would have made him not a natural born citizen, even though his mother is a US citizen, which would have Barack Obama a US citizen at birth, regardless of where he was born. St Bart's, like New Caledonia and Polynesia, is an EU Overseas Country/Territory, and a French Overseas Collectivity. St Bart's isn't as close politically to France as French Guiana or Martinique, which are both French Overseas Regions, and EU Outermost Regions. So I would compare places like French Guiana or Martinique to places like Puerto Rico, Guam, and the US Virgin Islands, and places like St Bart's, New Caledonia, and French Polynesia to places like American Samoa. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_member_state_territories_and_the_European_Union#Overseas_countries_and_territories https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_member_state_territori...
fulafel 5y ago
"America" is used by US people as a synonym for the country, not the continent. Europe, the EU, and names countries are used with distinction at least by Europeans.
- seszett 5y ago
  Europe is used by most EU people as meaning the European Union. I lived in a few French overseas territories and in addition to being in France, I was definitely "in Europe" even if not in a geographical sense.
  - burmanm 5y ago
    EU is definitely not a synonym to Europe. That would exclude UK, Norway and other countries that are certainly in Europe. I've never heard anyone even thinking those two things are the same.
    - samatman 5y ago
      The claim was not about Europe, nor about the EU: it was about Europeans, namely that they wouldn't be so 'irresponsible' as to run a towerless airfield. The citizens of St. Barts are French. Are you claiming they aren't European? Tell me, do they become European when they visit the Metropole? Does this quality vanish when they return to the Caribbean? I'd love an explanation!
      - Dylan16807 5y ago
        Born and raised there? I would say that they are non-European French. And visiting France wouldn't change that classification.
        rosndo 5y ago
        Ethnically and culturally the residents of St Barth are definitely Europeans. French people who moved to another part of France. People born there? French kids of French parents. If St Barth had different demographics, there might be a more meaningful debate to be had about this. It’s not exactly the melting pot you might expect from an old colony.
Someone 5y ago
No, it’s like saying Hawaii isn’t part of North America. I don’t think that’s controversial. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaii https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaii: “It is the only state outside North America”

js8 5y ago

Wouldn't Puerto Rico be a better analogy than Hawaii? Hawaii is more like Malta in EU, a full member state.

seszett 5y ago
Saint Barthélémy is closer to Hawaii in status. Puerto Rico doesn't have much representation at the federal level as far as I know, I'm not even sure if people there are full US citizens. People in Saint Barthélémy are just regular French and EU citizens who live far away from the mainland. The territory does have some degree of autonomy (more than other overseas départements) but still less so than a US state relative to the US federal government. In that, most French territories would have a status maybe more comparable to a county within a US state (afaiu the US system) than to a US state within the US. The whole comparison is a bit sketchy but France isn't a federal state and only New Caledonia and Polynesia have local legislation, all the rest of the country is very unitary in political and administrative aspects.
- rosndo 5y ago
  Yep, I was in St Barth when Macron ordered countrywide lockdowns from his throne in Paris. I was really surprised to see all the local businesses immediately complying, they sure seem OK with being French.
- cmurf 5y ago
  Puerto Ricans are full U.S. citizens. But it's complicated... https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2017-03-03/are-puerto-ricans-american-citizens https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2017-03-0...
- nwallin 5y ago
  Puerto Ricans are natural born US citizens. They're eligible to be elected President, for instance, which is not a right granted to someone who petitions for and receives US citizenship, or a person born to a US citizen parent. Perhaps you're thinking of American Samoa, which does not automatically grant citizenship based upon being born there, but does grant US residency and a US passport. For instances, when there was all the talk about Barack Obama's birth certificate, it wouldn't have disqualified him as a candidate to claim his birthplace was in Puerto Rico. (See also John McCain, who was born in the Panama Canal Zone, which had a similar status to Puerty Rico, but distinct from American Samoa.) It would have disqualified his candidacy if they were able to prove he was born in Kenya or American Samoa, which would have made him not a natural born citizen, even though his mother is a US citizen, which would have Barack Obama a US citizen at birth, regardless of where he was born. St Bart's, like New Caledonia and Polynesia, is an EU Overseas Country/Territory, and a French Overseas Collectivity. St Bart's isn't as close politically to France as French Guiana or Martinique, which are both French Overseas Regions, and EU Outermost Regions. So I would compare places like French Guiana or Martinique to places like Puerto Rico, Guam, and the US Virgin Islands, and places like St Bart's, New Caledonia, and French Polynesia to places like American Samoa. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_member_state_territories_and_the_European_Union#Overseas_countries_and_territories https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_member_state_territori...

fulafel 5y ago

"America" is used by US people as a synonym for the country, not the continent. Europe, the EU, and names countries are used with distinction at least by Europeans.

seszett 5y ago
Europe is used by most EU people as meaning the European Union. I lived in a few French overseas territories and in addition to being in France, I was definitely "in Europe" even if not in a geographical sense.
- burmanm 5y ago
  EU is definitely not a synonym to Europe. That would exclude UK, Norway and other countries that are certainly in Europe. I've never heard anyone even thinking those two things are the same.
  - samatman 5y ago
    The claim was not about Europe, nor about the EU: it was about Europeans, namely that they wouldn't be so 'irresponsible' as to run a towerless airfield. The citizens of St. Barts are French. Are you claiming they aren't European? Tell me, do they become European when they visit the Metropole? Does this quality vanish when they return to the Caribbean? I'd love an explanation!
    - Dylan16807 5y ago
      Born and raised there? I would say that they are non-European French. And visiting France wouldn't change that classification.
      - rosndo 5y ago
        Ethnically and culturally the residents of St Barth are definitely Europeans. French people who moved to another part of France. People born there? French kids of French parents. If St Barth had different demographics, there might be a more meaningful debate to be had about this. It’s not exactly the melting pot you might expect from an old colony.

Someone 5y ago

No, it’s like saying Hawaii isn’t part of North America. I don’t think that’s controversial. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaii https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaii: “It is the only state outside North America”