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Note that 'cultural legacy' is completely different from 'organized religion'. Celebrating 'Christmas' as a family get-together is completely different from cel

Note that 'cultural legacy' is completely different from 'organized religion'. Celebrating 'Christmas' as a family get-together is completely different from celebrating the arrival of the messiah and deriving your complete moral compass from that.

throwaway894345 5y ago
To be fair, you can interpret “cultural legacy” as “celebrating the same holidays” or as “having similar morals even if they are divorced from religious faith”.
- nautilius 5y ago
  Yes, but a superficial and accidental partial overlap between atheist and religious morals is meaningless.
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    I disagree that it’s superficial or accidental.
    - nautilius 5y ago
      You’re not alone. Many religious people cannot fathom that something outside of and independent of their moral system exists. Take the old discussion of atheists as satanists. What is that joke again? “No, we don’t believe in any of your imaginary friends.“
      - throwaway894345 5y ago
        I don’t see how that fits into the context of this conversation. Are you sure you responded to the right person?
        nautilius 5y ago
        Yes because you still interpret the similarity of morals as a causal direction (‘legacy’, ‘divorce‘) from religion. You’re giving religion way too much credit there.
        throwaway894345 5y ago
        Fair enough. Then yes, it’s hard for me to believe that the west’s wholesale adoption of Judeo-Christian ethics was unrelated to it steeping in Christianity for a thousand years—the gradual but significant ethical transition just happened to coincide with the Christian era. > Many religious people cannot fathom that something outside of and independent of their moral system exists. Well, this isn’t exactly an unpopular theory among Atheists either. Never mind that Atheists can go toe to toe with religious people with respect to dogmatic faith, tribalism, etc. Perhaps it’s not an issue of categorical superiority?
        nautilius 5y ago
        Again, what you consider "Judeo-Christian" was there before Christianity. Look no further than ancient Greece. Christianity was very successful in hijacking existing ideas and customs (Christmas, Easter) to be more easily adopted, and now claims to be the origin and cause of all (the good) that comes with it - which is the topic in this thread. >Well, this isn’t exactly an unpopular theory among Atheists either. What part? You think Atheists cannot see that religion exists and that people derive their 'morals' from that? Dogmatic faith? That's absurd, and sounds again like Christianity imposing their worldview onto others when faced with different worldviews. It's the same 'Atheists=Satanists' again, in which Atheists are only understood in the framework of Christianity. [edit] formatting
        throwaway894345 5y ago
        > Again, what you consider "Judeo-Christian" was there before Christianity. Look no further than ancient Greece. Christianity was very successful in hijacking existing ideas and customs (Christmas, Easter) to be more easily adopted, and now claims to be the origin and cause of all (the good) that comes with it - which is the topic in this thread. I think you're deeply mistaken on many counts. First of all, Christianity didn't "hijack" Christmas or Easter--those were patently Christian concepts; however, the medieval Church did dress up those concepts with superficial pagan trappings. That said, if you reduce Christianity to its holidays, then of course you would look at modern Western Civilization and feel that Christianity's effect was superficial. You have to have a modicum of understanding of Christian theology and ethics to see how those have influenced western civ. > What part? You think Atheists cannot see that religion exists and that people derive their 'morals' from that? I mean that I don't think "modern Western morals were significantly derived from Judeo-Christian values" is particularly controversial among Atheists. > Dogmatic faith? That's absurd, and sounds again like Christianity imposing their worldview onto others when faced with different worldviews. It's really not, you're just conflating "faith" with "religious faith". Atheists have faith in lots of things from various political ideals to the belief that God doesn't exist, and with respect to zeal the faith of Atheists can absolutely rival that of anyone else. Indeed, even your apparent belief that religious minds are feebler than those of Atheists is an article of faith. At the end of the day, people are just people and "religious" vs "atheists" isn't a useful taxonomy for virtually anything.
hypertele-Xii 5y ago
Not completely different, the messianic morals are embedded in the ceremony by design: Sharing, caring, family, food, etc. These aren't incidental, they're the whole point. Sure the specific historical person, i.e. the messiah, blurs over time, as probably do the ceremonial activities, but surely they retain some of the original moral ideals.
- nautilius 5y ago
  You prove my point. You won't find many atheists (if any) that will take Jesus as in any shape or form a historical person. These are two different worlds. Atheists don't derive their morals from these stories, that's the difference. That there is some superficial overlap (a tree? presents?) doesn't allow you to claim the morality of atheists as religion-derived. That's ludicrous. It's like saying the local butcher taking apart a pig is adhering to Aztec rituals and their morals because at some point in both 'ceremonies' someone holds a heart in their hands. In fact, the source of morals among atheists seems to be a permanent puzzle for many people with religious background, simply claiming them as religion-based misses the point completely.
  - lovecg 5y ago
    > In fact, the source of morals among atheists seems to be a permanent puzzle for many people with religious background, simply claiming them as religion-based misses the point completely. I don’t have a religious background and it’s still a puzzle for me. Best I can manage to explain it is through a combination of tradition and genes (“human nature”), and tradition is often indeed derived from historical religious environment. Moral is mostly universal but not completely - for one example the attitudes towards hard work at the expense of everything else vary greatly across different cultures and religious traditions.
    - atq2119 5y ago
      Amusingly, there's the same trap here as with the "who created the world" problem. Sure, religious people get their morals largely from their religion. But where do the morals of the religion come from?
rayiner 5y ago
I think cultural legacy is more deeply intertwined with morals than people appreciate. It’s just hard to see it because you’re surrounded by it. It’s easier to notice when you compare between countries and across religious traditions. My dad was raised very religious (Muslim) in Bangladesh. His grandfather was an imam. He is non-religious and I grew up non-religious, but I joined a Christian church after I got married. From that vantage point I was able to see how much of what I thought was secular American culture could be traced back to Christianity. Consider, for example, the obsession in Christian countries with equality. They almost fall over themselves to welcome people from different ethnic backgrounds. I suspect this has something to do with Christianity’s origins as a Jewish religion adopted by the Gentiles. I mean, how many societies have a religion centered around some other ethnic group? There’s so many aspects of society and culture that are the product of history, and of course history is deeply intertwined with religion. My atheist friend, who is white, was telling me how much she hated her uncle for being racist against Muslims. I pointed out to her that was an extremely Christian thing to say! https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2010&version=ESV https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2010&ve... > Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 And a person's enemies will be those of his own household. 37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. By contrast, Islam is a religion that arose in Arab society, where kinship ties mean everything. In my home country, putting people you don’t even know over kin, based on some abstract notion of justice, would be unthinkable. It actually made me a little uncomfortable to think that people like me had caused strife within her family.
- btilly 5y ago
  Question. How would you suggest I square your claims about Arab society with the observed fact that every year thousands of girls die in Arab countries from honor killings. And the fact that, as https://www.statista.com/statistics/1019538/mena-arab-respondents-on-honor-killings/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1019538/mena-arab-respon... shows, in many of these countries, significant minorities think that such killings are justified. Killing your own child suggests to me that kinship means rather less than it does in Western cultures.

throwaway894345 5y ago

To be fair, you can interpret “cultural legacy” as “celebrating the same holidays” or as “having similar morals even if they are divorced from religious faith”.

nautilius 5y ago
Yes, but a superficial and accidental partial overlap between atheist and religious morals is meaningless.
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  I disagree that it’s superficial or accidental.
  - nautilius 5y ago
    You’re not alone. Many religious people cannot fathom that something outside of and independent of their moral system exists. Take the old discussion of atheists as satanists. What is that joke again? “No, we don’t believe in any of your imaginary friends.“
    - throwaway894345 5y ago
      I don’t see how that fits into the context of this conversation. Are you sure you responded to the right person?
      - nautilius 5y ago
        Yes because you still interpret the similarity of morals as a causal direction (‘legacy’, ‘divorce‘) from religion. You’re giving religion way too much credit there.
        throwaway894345 5y ago
        Fair enough. Then yes, it’s hard for me to believe that the west’s wholesale adoption of Judeo-Christian ethics was unrelated to it steeping in Christianity for a thousand years—the gradual but significant ethical transition just happened to coincide with the Christian era. > Many religious people cannot fathom that something outside of and independent of their moral system exists. Well, this isn’t exactly an unpopular theory among Atheists either. Never mind that Atheists can go toe to toe with religious people with respect to dogmatic faith, tribalism, etc. Perhaps it’s not an issue of categorical superiority?
        nautilius 5y ago
        Again, what you consider "Judeo-Christian" was there before Christianity. Look no further than ancient Greece. Christianity was very successful in hijacking existing ideas and customs (Christmas, Easter) to be more easily adopted, and now claims to be the origin and cause of all (the good) that comes with it - which is the topic in this thread. >Well, this isn’t exactly an unpopular theory among Atheists either. What part? You think Atheists cannot see that religion exists and that people derive their 'morals' from that? Dogmatic faith? That's absurd, and sounds again like Christianity imposing their worldview onto others when faced with different worldviews. It's the same 'Atheists=Satanists' again, in which Atheists are only understood in the framework of Christianity. [edit] formatting
        throwaway894345 5y ago
        > Again, what you consider "Judeo-Christian" was there before Christianity. Look no further than ancient Greece. Christianity was very successful in hijacking existing ideas and customs (Christmas, Easter) to be more easily adopted, and now claims to be the origin and cause of all (the good) that comes with it - which is the topic in this thread. I think you're deeply mistaken on many counts. First of all, Christianity didn't "hijack" Christmas or Easter--those were patently Christian concepts; however, the medieval Church did dress up those concepts with superficial pagan trappings. That said, if you reduce Christianity to its holidays, then of course you would look at modern Western Civilization and feel that Christianity's effect was superficial. You have to have a modicum of understanding of Christian theology and ethics to see how those have influenced western civ. > What part? You think Atheists cannot see that religion exists and that people derive their 'morals' from that? I mean that I don't think "modern Western morals were significantly derived from Judeo-Christian values" is particularly controversial among Atheists. > Dogmatic faith? That's absurd, and sounds again like Christianity imposing their worldview onto others when faced with different worldviews. It's really not, you're just conflating "faith" with "religious faith". Atheists have faith in lots of things from various political ideals to the belief that God doesn't exist, and with respect to zeal the faith of Atheists can absolutely rival that of anyone else. Indeed, even your apparent belief that religious minds are feebler than those of Atheists is an article of faith. At the end of the day, people are just people and "religious" vs "atheists" isn't a useful taxonomy for virtually anything.

hypertele-Xii 5y ago

Not completely different, the messianic morals are embedded in the ceremony by design: Sharing, caring, family, food, etc. These aren't incidental, they're the whole point. Sure the specific historical person, i.e. the messiah, blurs over time, as probably do the ceremonial activities, but surely they retain some of the original moral ideals.

nautilius 5y ago
You prove my point. You won't find many atheists (if any) that will take Jesus as in any shape or form a historical person. These are two different worlds. Atheists don't derive their morals from these stories, that's the difference. That there is some superficial overlap (a tree? presents?) doesn't allow you to claim the morality of atheists as religion-derived. That's ludicrous. It's like saying the local butcher taking apart a pig is adhering to Aztec rituals and their morals because at some point in both 'ceremonies' someone holds a heart in their hands. In fact, the source of morals among atheists seems to be a permanent puzzle for many people with religious background, simply claiming them as religion-based misses the point completely.
- lovecg 5y ago
  > In fact, the source of morals among atheists seems to be a permanent puzzle for many people with religious background, simply claiming them as religion-based misses the point completely. I don’t have a religious background and it’s still a puzzle for me. Best I can manage to explain it is through a combination of tradition and genes (“human nature”), and tradition is often indeed derived from historical religious environment. Moral is mostly universal but not completely - for one example the attitudes towards hard work at the expense of everything else vary greatly across different cultures and religious traditions.
  - atq2119 5y ago
    Amusingly, there's the same trap here as with the "who created the world" problem. Sure, religious people get their morals largely from their religion. But where do the morals of the religion come from?

rayiner 5y ago

I think cultural legacy is more deeply intertwined with morals than people appreciate. It’s just hard to see it because you’re surrounded by it. It’s easier to notice when you compare between countries and across religious traditions. My dad was raised very religious (Muslim) in Bangladesh. His grandfather was an imam. He is non-religious and I grew up non-religious, but I joined a Christian church after I got married. From that vantage point I was able to see how much of what I thought was secular American culture could be traced back to Christianity. Consider, for example, the obsession in Christian countries with equality. They almost fall over themselves to welcome people from different ethnic backgrounds. I suspect this has something to do with Christianity’s origins as a Jewish religion adopted by the Gentiles. I mean, how many societies have a religion centered around some other ethnic group? There’s so many aspects of society and culture that are the product of history, and of course history is deeply intertwined with religion. My atheist friend, who is white, was telling me how much she hated her uncle for being racist against Muslims. I pointed out to her that was an extremely Christian thing to say! https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2010&version=ESV https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2010&ve... > Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 And a person's enemies will be those of his own household. 37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. By contrast, Islam is a religion that arose in Arab society, where kinship ties mean everything. In my home country, putting people you don’t even know over kin, based on some abstract notion of justice, would be unthinkable. It actually made me a little uncomfortable to think that people like me had caused strife within her family.

btilly 5y ago
Question. How would you suggest I square your claims about Arab society with the observed fact that every year thousands of girls die in Arab countries from honor killings. And the fact that, as https://www.statista.com/statistics/1019538/mena-arab-respondents-on-honor-killings/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1019538/mena-arab-respon... shows, in many of these countries, significant minorities think that such killings are justified. Killing your own child suggests to me that kinship means rather less than it does in Western cultures.