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Signing means accepting an offer. To sign, one needs to get a copy of a contract. So one always sees a contract before signing, no? Let’s look at it from a dif

Signing means accepting an offer. To sign, one needs to get a copy of a contract. So one always sees a contract before signing, no? Let’s look at it from a different angle. One does not file a resignation before receiving a countersigned copy from the company.

ohazi 5y ago
It's always a moving target. To continue working at a company, you are usually expected to sign every piece of paper that they put in front of you throughout your tenure. If you don't, the consequences could range from absolutely nothing, to being pestered every six months, to being kept off a project or not promoted, to being fired. If at some point you become popular or are seen as critical, you may be able to spend some of your political capital to get around signing some of the papers that you don't particularly want to sign, but this doesn't always work, and you can't always get away with this indefinitely. An amendment to your offer of employment that tries to prevent you from moonlighting could come after your first day, or after your third month. They get to choose the timing, and the more unscrupulous will absolutely use this to their advantage. They won't give it to you after the first day or week, so you don't just walk -- they'll wait until you've settled in and are more likely to concede in frustration.
- rad_gruchalski 5y ago
  I’m so used to the European way of employment that this blows my mind.
Kranar 5y ago
This isn't true unfortunately and there are absolutely horror stories of this happening to people. For example at some FANG companies you sign what you think is your regular employment contract and then move on down to the Valley excited to start your new job on the agreed upon terms... then as soon as you introduce yourself at reception just before orientation, you're made to sign a secondary agreement with terms you will likely have never seen before. If you so much as object or raise an issue about it you risk being terminated there and then. There was just such an article posted to HN years ago about this happening at... I want to say Google... but my memory of that is hazy.
- rad_gruchalski 5y ago
  Serious question then: do you really believe that they are going to show you “the second contract”? It seems like the better question is: are there other documents than this contract on which this job depends to sign and can I see them. If yes, can you please put this in the contract.
  - cormacrelf 5y ago
    Yes, good question. It can be more of a demand, even -- before you sign, ask "can you send me all of the documents I will be required to sign along with my contract?" and expect to be given the full run of corporate policy, non-disclosure agreements, etc etc etc. If they won't give them to you, they are hiding something and you shouldn't sign. Corporate policy should be incredibly boring and nobody has a good reason to prevent you from seeing that. If you've signed a complete contract already, and there are new things to sign, they're asking you to agree to a new contract. Which you don't have to agree to, and if you don't, then anything you've already signed is still in effect. To get rid of you after that they have to resort to the termination provisions in the original contract. Of course "refusing to agree to corporate policy" is typically something that they can terminate you for. So a big part of the law dictating how much they can make you sign later is found in termination provisions. If your original contract's termination clauses are written so broadly that they could fire you easily for refusing to agree to a new contract that essentially rewrites the old one, then there are things you should see a lawyer about before touching it. (This is a much bigger deal than policy changes. I'm talking "no we actually have 10 more onerous pre-conditions to exercising stock options that we hid from you, such that you will find it almost impossible to do. sign here".) Large swaths of contract law are devoted to invalidating terms that say versions of "I can dictate the terms". So my guess is that the horror stories were not supported by the original contract using likely-invalid language, but rather purely on the threat of messing up someone's new job. Especially if you're e.g. moving for a job, your goal is to sniff this out before you sign. So insist on full pre-signing transparency, get assurances that there are no other documents that are considered mandatory, and watch the responses carefully.
    - 5y ago
BeetleB 5y ago
There are multiple things to sign. At my company, you sign most of them on your first day on the job. I probably could have asked to see them during the offer stage, but there's no guarantee that's the same document you'll be asked to sign (and likely the part of HR involved in giving you the offer is not the same part of HR that makes you sign the first day).
- user_named 5y ago
  I asked to see these at the offer stage. They said nobody had ever asked for this before and didn't give it to me. Company with 100k employees globally.
  - cormacrelf 5y ago
    That's not a good enough reason. They want to hire you, they've been through a lot of candidates, spent tons of important people's time interviewing you, and may be paying a recruiter $20k to find you. They can send you a damn PDF. Insist.
- mcv 5y ago
  Never sign anything on the spot. Always take it home to study it. If there's clauses you have doubts about, consult with your lawyer. Negotiate everything that's not acceptable to you. You could also being a contract of your own for them to sign. They won't, of course, but it can help drive home the point why you need time to look at the contract.
  - BeetleB 5y ago
    So you've left your old job, and now want to negotiate? No one's fooled about who has leverage. Story here not too long ago of a Google employee being let go on his first day because he did exactly what you're suggesting. I'm sure my company would do the same. When you hire over a thousand people a year (let alone thousands), they're not going to modify their efficient procedures for you. It's cheaper to hire another person. I'm sure they'll let you take the contract home, but your only option really is to quit.
inopinatus 5y ago
On the contrary, you can have a job without a contract. Corollary: continuing employment may depend on adherence to policies you don't control, regardless of prior agreement. Not all law is contract law, and this remains true of employment law.
hlbjhblbljib 5y ago
Some companies do things in stupid orders though. I recently got an offer that had a contract that said the whole deal was contingent on me passing vetting and reference checks. Inside the contract. Like I was going to sign, give notice at my current job, and if they're not happy I simply don't have a job. I nope'd out of that process. Their HR was a mess.

ohazi 5y ago

It's always a moving target. To continue working at a company, you are usually expected to sign every piece of paper that they put in front of you throughout your tenure. If you don't, the consequences could range from absolutely nothing, to being pestered every six months, to being kept off a project or not promoted, to being fired. If at some point you become popular or are seen as critical, you may be able to spend some of your political capital to get around signing some of the papers that you don't particularly want to sign, but this doesn't always work, and you can't always get away with this indefinitely. An amendment to your offer of employment that tries to prevent you from moonlighting could come after your first day, or after your third month. They get to choose the timing, and the more unscrupulous will absolutely use this to their advantage. They won't give it to you after the first day or week, so you don't just walk -- they'll wait until you've settled in and are more likely to concede in frustration.

rad_gruchalski 5y ago
I’m so used to the European way of employment that this blows my mind.

Kranar 5y ago

This isn't true unfortunately and there are absolutely horror stories of this happening to people. For example at some FANG companies you sign what you think is your regular employment contract and then move on down to the Valley excited to start your new job on the agreed upon terms... then as soon as you introduce yourself at reception just before orientation, you're made to sign a secondary agreement with terms you will likely have never seen before. If you so much as object or raise an issue about it you risk being terminated there and then. There was just such an article posted to HN years ago about this happening at... I want to say Google... but my memory of that is hazy.

rad_gruchalski 5y ago
Serious question then: do you really believe that they are going to show you “the second contract”? It seems like the better question is: are there other documents than this contract on which this job depends to sign and can I see them. If yes, can you please put this in the contract.
- cormacrelf 5y ago
  Yes, good question. It can be more of a demand, even -- before you sign, ask "can you send me all of the documents I will be required to sign along with my contract?" and expect to be given the full run of corporate policy, non-disclosure agreements, etc etc etc. If they won't give them to you, they are hiding something and you shouldn't sign. Corporate policy should be incredibly boring and nobody has a good reason to prevent you from seeing that. If you've signed a complete contract already, and there are new things to sign, they're asking you to agree to a new contract. Which you don't have to agree to, and if you don't, then anything you've already signed is still in effect. To get rid of you after that they have to resort to the termination provisions in the original contract. Of course "refusing to agree to corporate policy" is typically something that they can terminate you for. So a big part of the law dictating how much they can make you sign later is found in termination provisions. If your original contract's termination clauses are written so broadly that they could fire you easily for refusing to agree to a new contract that essentially rewrites the old one, then there are things you should see a lawyer about before touching it. (This is a much bigger deal than policy changes. I'm talking "no we actually have 10 more onerous pre-conditions to exercising stock options that we hid from you, such that you will find it almost impossible to do. sign here".) Large swaths of contract law are devoted to invalidating terms that say versions of "I can dictate the terms". So my guess is that the horror stories were not supported by the original contract using likely-invalid language, but rather purely on the threat of messing up someone's new job. Especially if you're e.g. moving for a job, your goal is to sniff this out before you sign. So insist on full pre-signing transparency, get assurances that there are no other documents that are considered mandatory, and watch the responses carefully.
  - 5y ago

BeetleB 5y ago

There are multiple things to sign. At my company, you sign most of them on your first day on the job. I probably could have asked to see them during the offer stage, but there's no guarantee that's the same document you'll be asked to sign (and likely the part of HR involved in giving you the offer is not the same part of HR that makes you sign the first day).

user_named 5y ago
I asked to see these at the offer stage. They said nobody had ever asked for this before and didn't give it to me. Company with 100k employees globally.
- cormacrelf 5y ago
  That's not a good enough reason. They want to hire you, they've been through a lot of candidates, spent tons of important people's time interviewing you, and may be paying a recruiter $20k to find you. They can send you a damn PDF. Insist.
mcv 5y ago
Never sign anything on the spot. Always take it home to study it. If there's clauses you have doubts about, consult with your lawyer. Negotiate everything that's not acceptable to you. You could also being a contract of your own for them to sign. They won't, of course, but it can help drive home the point why you need time to look at the contract.
- BeetleB 5y ago
  So you've left your old job, and now want to negotiate? No one's fooled about who has leverage. Story here not too long ago of a Google employee being let go on his first day because he did exactly what you're suggesting. I'm sure my company would do the same. When you hire over a thousand people a year (let alone thousands), they're not going to modify their efficient procedures for you. It's cheaper to hire another person. I'm sure they'll let you take the contract home, but your only option really is to quit.

inopinatus 5y ago

On the contrary, you can have a job without a contract. Corollary: continuing employment may depend on adherence to policies you don't control, regardless of prior agreement. Not all law is contract law, and this remains true of employment law.

hlbjhblbljib 5y ago

Some companies do things in stupid orders though. I recently got an offer that had a contract that said the whole deal was contingent on me passing vetting and reference checks. Inside the contract. Like I was going to sign, give notice at my current job, and if they're not happy I simply don't have a job. I nope'd out of that process. Their HR was a mess.