4 ms·

> "What are the company's non-compete rules? If I wanted to make and sell an app in my spare time, is that allowed? What isn't allowed?" I would not be surpris

> "What are the company's non-compete rules? If I wanted to make and sell an app in my spare time, is that allowed? What isn't allowed?" I would not be surprised at all if the people interviewing me gave a nice answer and then on day one I'm asked to sign a contract that doesn't match what they said. Ask if you can see the employment contract before accepting an offer.

rjzzleep 5y ago
> Ask if you can see the employment contract before accepting an offer. I'm a bit puzzled by this answer. What's wrong with: "I read the contract and I don't like the terms sorry"
- passerby1 5y ago
  Nothing. Time is wasted. However I doubt it's easy to see a contract before signing offer.
- Buttons840 5y ago
  Usually there's a surprise contract waiting for day one of a job, after you've left your other job. Yes, you can still walk away, but it's better to review that contract sooner. If you don't ask to see the contract, it will almost certainly be a day one surprise. And even if you do ask, the legal department, who neither you nor the people interviewing you frequently communicate with, might still have some surprises in store.
  - anitil 5y ago
    I've been sprung with these before. Usually trivial, unenforceable issues, but annoying none the less. The worst was I once even had a background check _after_ accepting and signing. Nothing came up, but that could have left me with no job and no recourse. How do you avoid this? It's a particular kind of institutional trickery that may not even be intentional but is very frustrating.
    - hiptobecubic 5y ago
      Don't quit until you sign something that says they will be hiring you and paying you until one of you decides to terminate the agreement?
      - Buttons840 5y ago
        How would that help? Whether it's written or not, the agreement is as you say, until one party decides to end it. And even with such an agreement, they might still ask you to sign something on day one. If you don't sign it, they may very well decided to "terminate the agreement" on day one.
        nosefrog 5y ago
        If you're fired, you're eligible for unemployment. You're also eligible if you quit your job for a new company but then they rescind the offer. That's basically as much protection as you get in the US, since most states are at-will.
        t-3 5y ago
        If you get fired on your first day, you won't be eligible for unemployment. Usually, 90 days is required.
    - oceanplexian 5y ago
      In the US employment is at-will, so it's sort of a moot point. Sure they can fire you because of something on your background check, but they could also fire you 3 days after starting because the manager doesn't like you. Short of a serious felony conviction it's unlikely to come up, and if it does discuss it or move on to thousand of other companies.
      - anitil 5y ago
        Oh I should have added this is in Australia. And yes you can move on, but you're still in an unnecessary position (looking for work while not employed) through no fault of your own.
rad_gruchalski 5y ago
Signing means accepting an offer. To sign, one needs to get a copy of a contract. So one always sees a contract before signing, no? Let’s look at it from a different angle. One does not file a resignation before receiving a countersigned copy from the company.
- ohazi 5y ago
  It's always a moving target. To continue working at a company, you are usually expected to sign every piece of paper that they put in front of you throughout your tenure. If you don't, the consequences could range from absolutely nothing, to being pestered every six months, to being kept off a project or not promoted, to being fired. If at some point you become popular or are seen as critical, you may be able to spend some of your political capital to get around signing some of the papers that you don't particularly want to sign, but this doesn't always work, and you can't always get away with this indefinitely. An amendment to your offer of employment that tries to prevent you from moonlighting could come after your first day, or after your third month. They get to choose the timing, and the more unscrupulous will absolutely use this to their advantage. They won't give it to you after the first day or week, so you don't just walk -- they'll wait until you've settled in and are more likely to concede in frustration.
  - rad_gruchalski 5y ago
    I’m so used to the European way of employment that this blows my mind.
- Kranar 5y ago
  This isn't true unfortunately and there are absolutely horror stories of this happening to people. For example at some FANG companies you sign what you think is your regular employment contract and then move on down to the Valley excited to start your new job on the agreed upon terms... then as soon as you introduce yourself at reception just before orientation, you're made to sign a secondary agreement with terms you will likely have never seen before. If you so much as object or raise an issue about it you risk being terminated there and then. There was just such an article posted to HN years ago about this happening at... I want to say Google... but my memory of that is hazy.
mabbo 5y ago
I was asking developers, not hiring managers and recruiters. The developers have no reason to bullshit me. And they didn't.

rjzzleep 5y ago

> Ask if you can see the employment contract before accepting an offer. I'm a bit puzzled by this answer. What's wrong with: "I read the contract and I don't like the terms sorry"

passerby1 5y ago
Nothing. Time is wasted. However I doubt it's easy to see a contract before signing offer.
Buttons840 5y ago
Usually there's a surprise contract waiting for day one of a job, after you've left your other job. Yes, you can still walk away, but it's better to review that contract sooner. If you don't ask to see the contract, it will almost certainly be a day one surprise. And even if you do ask, the legal department, who neither you nor the people interviewing you frequently communicate with, might still have some surprises in store.
- anitil 5y ago
  I've been sprung with these before. Usually trivial, unenforceable issues, but annoying none the less. The worst was I once even had a background check _after_ accepting and signing. Nothing came up, but that could have left me with no job and no recourse. How do you avoid this? It's a particular kind of institutional trickery that may not even be intentional but is very frustrating.
  - hiptobecubic 5y ago
    Don't quit until you sign something that says they will be hiring you and paying you until one of you decides to terminate the agreement?
    - Buttons840 5y ago
      How would that help? Whether it's written or not, the agreement is as you say, until one party decides to end it. And even with such an agreement, they might still ask you to sign something on day one. If you don't sign it, they may very well decided to "terminate the agreement" on day one.
      - nosefrog 5y ago
        If you're fired, you're eligible for unemployment. You're also eligible if you quit your job for a new company but then they rescind the offer. That's basically as much protection as you get in the US, since most states are at-will.
        t-3 5y ago
        If you get fired on your first day, you won't be eligible for unemployment. Usually, 90 days is required.
  - oceanplexian 5y ago
    In the US employment is at-will, so it's sort of a moot point. Sure they can fire you because of something on your background check, but they could also fire you 3 days after starting because the manager doesn't like you. Short of a serious felony conviction it's unlikely to come up, and if it does discuss it or move on to thousand of other companies.
    - anitil 5y ago
      Oh I should have added this is in Australia. And yes you can move on, but you're still in an unnecessary position (looking for work while not employed) through no fault of your own.

rad_gruchalski 5y ago

Signing means accepting an offer. To sign, one needs to get a copy of a contract. So one always sees a contract before signing, no? Let’s look at it from a different angle. One does not file a resignation before receiving a countersigned copy from the company.

ohazi 5y ago
It's always a moving target. To continue working at a company, you are usually expected to sign every piece of paper that they put in front of you throughout your tenure. If you don't, the consequences could range from absolutely nothing, to being pestered every six months, to being kept off a project or not promoted, to being fired. If at some point you become popular or are seen as critical, you may be able to spend some of your political capital to get around signing some of the papers that you don't particularly want to sign, but this doesn't always work, and you can't always get away with this indefinitely. An amendment to your offer of employment that tries to prevent you from moonlighting could come after your first day, or after your third month. They get to choose the timing, and the more unscrupulous will absolutely use this to their advantage. They won't give it to you after the first day or week, so you don't just walk -- they'll wait until you've settled in and are more likely to concede in frustration.
- rad_gruchalski 5y ago
  I’m so used to the European way of employment that this blows my mind.
Kranar 5y ago
This isn't true unfortunately and there are absolutely horror stories of this happening to people. For example at some FANG companies you sign what you think is your regular employment contract and then move on down to the Valley excited to start your new job on the agreed upon terms... then as soon as you introduce yourself at reception just before orientation, you're made to sign a secondary agreement with terms you will likely have never seen before. If you so much as object or raise an issue about it you risk being terminated there and then. There was just such an article posted to HN years ago about this happening at... I want to say Google... but my memory of that is hazy.

mabbo 5y ago

I was asking developers, not hiring managers and recruiters. The developers have no reason to bullshit me. And they didn't.