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Explicit evidence of Tiktok sharing information with the Chinese government is not needed because there is already sufficient evidence that 1. The Chinese gove

Explicit evidence of Tiktok sharing information with the Chinese government is not needed because there is already sufficient evidence that 1. The Chinese government does not deserve our trust. 2. All Chinese businesses are extensions of the Chinese government. The default assumption should be that your information is being sent to China and that China is using Tiktok as an extention of their propaganda arm.

chrischen 5y ago
Technically all businesses with a large interest inside X jurisdiction will have leverage against it in some way. For example Microsoft had to hand over its Windows source code to China. By extension of that leverage you can assume that jurisdiction has some control over it. In US it could be national security letters issued to TikTok. In China it could be their equivalent issued to someone physically on their soil.
- curiousmindz 5y ago
  To be clearer, Microsoft has a program allowing most governments to inspect the source code of Windows. This is not specific to one country.
  - tekknik 5y ago
    Private companies as well
cvlasdkv 5y ago
- friedman23 5y ago
  > You claim there is "sufficient evidence" yet provide none Do I need to provide evidence that the Chinese government should not be trusted and that China has control over all businesses based within its borders? This is common knowledge. > I'm less worried than if it were used by American companies to target me specifically for ads You should try practicing what you preach regarding so called xenophobia. Also your defensiveness in this regard is misplaced because my post is not pro American ad companies and it is not pro data collection. I am anti data collection. So not only am I against tiktok because it's controlled by a genocidal dictatorship that has raised a legion of indoctrinated nationalists, I'm anti tiktok because it represents the absolute worst of social media.
  - cvlasdkv 5y ago
    [flagged]
    - friedman23 5y ago
      > Yes, because it's likely your "common knowledge" is a misunderstanding or misrepresentation of reality Fine, you disagree with me, I'm not putting in any more effort discussing this with you because I don't believe you are arguing in good faith. I'll let the reader of HN decide using their own judgement. > Ironically this is most of the world's opinion of America. You keep up bringing up America despite me not mentioning them or even defending the country. This is a classic tactic for derailing conversations.
      - tekknik 5y ago
        They’re likely the Chinese gov themselves. Nobody with a sane mind outside of Chinese control can claim xenophobia when the subject is China.
    - l33t2328 5y ago
      > genocidal dictatorship Do you believe in earnest that China is not a genocidal dictatorship?
- Diesel555 5y ago
  There are many books published on the topic that layout the evidence. A discussion here cannot begin to explain the depth of the problem, the reasons why our foreign policy has failed, and the evidence that exists. A superficial discussion almost does the topic a disservice and comes off as xenophobic. If you are truly interested in the topic I recommend "The World According to China" by Economy published 2022. I have 8 other book recommendations to cover the breadth of the field and the opinions if you care. Most of the authors of the books express their love for the Chinese people. Most of them lived there at one point, and separate that view from their issues with the CCP and government. If you do due diligence in the area you may change your viewpoint. Maybe not. No-one on this thread is going to convince you in a few paragraphs to change your mind on a subject this charged and complex. A more fun book, less academic, was published last year by Desmond Shum detailing his rise to becoming a billionaire as a China native and Hong Kong resident. He wrote the book after his billionaire ex-wife was abducted. She was not heard of for four years. She called him the day before he was to publish the book asking him not to. > https://www.npr.org/2021/09/06/1034556269/red-roulette-reveals-the-inside-of-chinas-wealth-making-machine https://www.npr.org/2021/09/06/1034556269/red-roulette-revea...
acconrad 5y ago
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitchens%27s_razor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitchens%27s_razor
- friedman23 5y ago
  Like I said in another comment, I'll allow HN readers to use their own judgement. edit: but you know what. Since you want evidence I'll give you some. The entire Alibaba debacle where the CEO was forced into hiding because he dared to contradict the Chinese political elite is my evidence that the Chinese government has implicit control over every business based out of China.
  - ammo1662 5y ago
    Evidence? If I did not use their services and had some friends work at Alibaba, I would trust you.
    - tekknik 5y ago
      How much are you being paid?
      - ammo1662 5y ago
        Just less than you
        tekknik 5y ago
        And what am I being paid for? I’m not the one promoting a dictatorship. I’m consistent with my anti-dictatorship message.
        ammo1662 5y ago
        I just shared the information based my real life. I live in China and had some business with Alibaba, even though I don't like the company. I did not say anything about politics or dictatorship, I just shared the fact that Alibaba is still running well. If you think whatever you don't believe is just fake, then you would better go back to watch your CNN. So who is brainwashed?
beepbooptheory 5y ago
People are talking about the other parts pretty well, but the idea of a "propaganda arm" seems a little funny to me. What is the propaganda they want to push? To what end?
- friedman23 5y ago
  > What is the propaganda they want to push? To what end? Propaganda is not just about "pushing" a message but also about smothering discussion. In fact, pushing a message via something like Tiktok is ham fisted, what the Chinese government can do instead is stifle any discussion related to topics that they consider "dangerous". For example, shadow banning any tiktok videos related to the Uighur genocide. They can blame any manipulation on some ranking algorithm.
  - beepbooptheory 5y ago
    But then isn't this circular? They create the app to harvest the data to help them stifle the conversation they have made possible by creating the app in the first place!
    - friedman23 5y ago
      You are assuming that the platform would not exist if the company didn't create it. But if tiktok doesn't exist the discussion would just happen somewhere else. I should also say that I'm not suggesting that tiktok was created for the sole purpose of pushing propaganda from its inception.
      - beepbooptheory 5y ago
        Well then I guess there is nothing left to say, as there is absolutely nothing that can be falsified in your beliefs, only the single-minded faith in an absolute national enemy. I only wish y'all could hear yourselves when you say these things, with even a fraction more rational clarity, even an ounce more suspicion of the political narratives at work here. These conversations are deeply troubling to me, makes me absolutely ashamed to be a westerner of any sorts. I think I will go find greener pastures now, thanks for the wake up call, hope you find peace too.
wbsss4412 5y ago
Post Snowden leaks, one could pretty much say the same about any American tech giant.
- ipaddr 5y ago
  It is a little different with the nsa tapping the underwater cable trying to steal info where in China they create an internet where they hire millions of people to watch every conversation happening in real time. One couldn't say the same.. at all.
  - wbsss4412 5y ago
    Yes, if you completely minimize the level of bulk data collection the NSA and the US does through its partners, it’s completely different. You’ve left out all of the prism program, wherein the government had direct access to telecom and tech company servers. What China does inside of China doesn’t have any bearing on the western internet. The topic at hand is the data collection that tic tok is engaging in, which already has plenty of precedent in the west, unfortunately. It’s completely contrary to the values enshrined in the US constitution to make arguments like, “ah well but that person/group/country is bad and we aren’t” the entire political theory our nation is supposed to be built on is the notion that people with too much power will do bad things.
  - dumb1224 5y ago
    > watch every conversation happening in real time Eh.... are you sure? A lot of my childhood friends are now working in various ares of what you might consider 'authoritative post' or the infamous 有关部门 but I think it's still a bit too divorced from reality. Censorship and blatant blockage for sure but millions spying on billions in real time? I don't think that's how they work.
    - wbsss4412 5y ago
      Yes, parent’s assertion is fairly preposterous. There is no way one could conduct surveillance on that scale in a non automated fashion. There are too many resources required.

chrischen 5y ago

Technically all businesses with a large interest inside X jurisdiction will have leverage against it in some way. For example Microsoft had to hand over its Windows source code to China. By extension of that leverage you can assume that jurisdiction has some control over it. In US it could be national security letters issued to TikTok. In China it could be their equivalent issued to someone physically on their soil.

curiousmindz 5y ago
To be clearer, Microsoft has a program allowing most governments to inspect the source code of Windows. This is not specific to one country.
- tekknik 5y ago
  Private companies as well

cvlasdkv 5y ago

friedman23 5y ago
> You claim there is "sufficient evidence" yet provide none Do I need to provide evidence that the Chinese government should not be trusted and that China has control over all businesses based within its borders? This is common knowledge. > I'm less worried than if it were used by American companies to target me specifically for ads You should try practicing what you preach regarding so called xenophobia. Also your defensiveness in this regard is misplaced because my post is not pro American ad companies and it is not pro data collection. I am anti data collection. So not only am I against tiktok because it's controlled by a genocidal dictatorship that has raised a legion of indoctrinated nationalists, I'm anti tiktok because it represents the absolute worst of social media.
- cvlasdkv 5y ago
  [flagged]
  - friedman23 5y ago
    > Yes, because it's likely your "common knowledge" is a misunderstanding or misrepresentation of reality Fine, you disagree with me, I'm not putting in any more effort discussing this with you because I don't believe you are arguing in good faith. I'll let the reader of HN decide using their own judgement. > Ironically this is most of the world's opinion of America. You keep up bringing up America despite me not mentioning them or even defending the country. This is a classic tactic for derailing conversations.
    - tekknik 5y ago
      They’re likely the Chinese gov themselves. Nobody with a sane mind outside of Chinese control can claim xenophobia when the subject is China.
  - l33t2328 5y ago
    > genocidal dictatorship Do you believe in earnest that China is not a genocidal dictatorship?
Diesel555 5y ago
There are many books published on the topic that layout the evidence. A discussion here cannot begin to explain the depth of the problem, the reasons why our foreign policy has failed, and the evidence that exists. A superficial discussion almost does the topic a disservice and comes off as xenophobic. If you are truly interested in the topic I recommend "The World According to China" by Economy published 2022. I have 8 other book recommendations to cover the breadth of the field and the opinions if you care. Most of the authors of the books express their love for the Chinese people. Most of them lived there at one point, and separate that view from their issues with the CCP and government. If you do due diligence in the area you may change your viewpoint. Maybe not. No-one on this thread is going to convince you in a few paragraphs to change your mind on a subject this charged and complex. A more fun book, less academic, was published last year by Desmond Shum detailing his rise to becoming a billionaire as a China native and Hong Kong resident. He wrote the book after his billionaire ex-wife was abducted. She was not heard of for four years. She called him the day before he was to publish the book asking him not to. > https://www.npr.org/2021/09/06/1034556269/red-roulette-reveals-the-inside-of-chinas-wealth-making-machine https://www.npr.org/2021/09/06/1034556269/red-roulette-revea...

acconrad 5y ago

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitchens%27s_razor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitchens%27s_razor

friedman23 5y ago
Like I said in another comment, I'll allow HN readers to use their own judgement. edit: but you know what. Since you want evidence I'll give you some. The entire Alibaba debacle where the CEO was forced into hiding because he dared to contradict the Chinese political elite is my evidence that the Chinese government has implicit control over every business based out of China.
- ammo1662 5y ago
  Evidence? If I did not use their services and had some friends work at Alibaba, I would trust you.
  - tekknik 5y ago
    How much are you being paid?
    - ammo1662 5y ago
      Just less than you
      - tekknik 5y ago
        And what am I being paid for? I’m not the one promoting a dictatorship. I’m consistent with my anti-dictatorship message.
        ammo1662 5y ago
        I just shared the information based my real life. I live in China and had some business with Alibaba, even though I don't like the company. I did not say anything about politics or dictatorship, I just shared the fact that Alibaba is still running well. If you think whatever you don't believe is just fake, then you would better go back to watch your CNN. So who is brainwashed?

beepbooptheory 5y ago

People are talking about the other parts pretty well, but the idea of a "propaganda arm" seems a little funny to me. What is the propaganda they want to push? To what end?

friedman23 5y ago
> What is the propaganda they want to push? To what end? Propaganda is not just about "pushing" a message but also about smothering discussion. In fact, pushing a message via something like Tiktok is ham fisted, what the Chinese government can do instead is stifle any discussion related to topics that they consider "dangerous". For example, shadow banning any tiktok videos related to the Uighur genocide. They can blame any manipulation on some ranking algorithm.
- beepbooptheory 5y ago
  But then isn't this circular? They create the app to harvest the data to help them stifle the conversation they have made possible by creating the app in the first place!
  - friedman23 5y ago
    You are assuming that the platform would not exist if the company didn't create it. But if tiktok doesn't exist the discussion would just happen somewhere else. I should also say that I'm not suggesting that tiktok was created for the sole purpose of pushing propaganda from its inception.
    - beepbooptheory 5y ago
      Well then I guess there is nothing left to say, as there is absolutely nothing that can be falsified in your beliefs, only the single-minded faith in an absolute national enemy. I only wish y'all could hear yourselves when you say these things, with even a fraction more rational clarity, even an ounce more suspicion of the political narratives at work here. These conversations are deeply troubling to me, makes me absolutely ashamed to be a westerner of any sorts. I think I will go find greener pastures now, thanks for the wake up call, hope you find peace too.

wbsss4412 5y ago

Post Snowden leaks, one could pretty much say the same about any American tech giant.

ipaddr 5y ago
It is a little different with the nsa tapping the underwater cable trying to steal info where in China they create an internet where they hire millions of people to watch every conversation happening in real time. One couldn't say the same.. at all.
- wbsss4412 5y ago
  Yes, if you completely minimize the level of bulk data collection the NSA and the US does through its partners, it’s completely different. You’ve left out all of the prism program, wherein the government had direct access to telecom and tech company servers. What China does inside of China doesn’t have any bearing on the western internet. The topic at hand is the data collection that tic tok is engaging in, which already has plenty of precedent in the west, unfortunately. It’s completely contrary to the values enshrined in the US constitution to make arguments like, “ah well but that person/group/country is bad and we aren’t” the entire political theory our nation is supposed to be built on is the notion that people with too much power will do bad things.
- dumb1224 5y ago
  > watch every conversation happening in real time Eh.... are you sure? A lot of my childhood friends are now working in various ares of what you might consider 'authoritative post' or the infamous 有关部门 but I think it's still a bit too divorced from reality. Censorship and blatant blockage for sure but millions spying on billions in real time? I don't think that's how they work.
  - wbsss4412 5y ago
    Yes, parent’s assertion is fairly preposterous. There is no way one could conduct surveillance on that scale in a non automated fashion. There are too many resources required.