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Purely anecdotal, but it was uncool, dorky, nerdy, etc. where I grew up for boys to be interested in math or even English, but “more manly stuff” like working w

Purely anecdotal, but it was uncool, dorky, nerdy, etc. where I grew up for boys to be interested in math or even English, but “more manly stuff” like working with your hands was highly encouraged. It seems that kind of culture will result in men being less likely to end up in higher paying careers.l than girls who are being encouraged to pursue STEM.

bmj 5y ago
You do realize that a career in the skilled trades can lead to very good pay, right? Yes, the work can be hard, and the hours sometimes long, but there are very clear paths to working independently, or for small shops/contractors that provide a nice degree of independence and good pay. I think high school kids in the U.S. should be exposed to STEM, the humanities, and the trades. We have pushed college/academic achievement long enough, and I suspect that some of the data we are seeing represents a backlash against it, particularly when you consider the cost of university and the job prospects for new graduates.
- zozbot234 5y ago
  > You do realize that a career in the skilled trades can lead to very good pay, right? Only if you can start your independent business, which few can do pretty much by definition. That's still a recipe for bimodal outcomes. And the U.S. has pushed "college achievement" on paper, but their K-12 education still sucks. There's no way that this isn't a drag on college outcomes.
  - jeffbee 5y ago
    I knew people who started oilfield welding businesses at the age of 18 right out of high school, bought houses and started families. Yeah that is a boom-and-bust business but then again so is machine learning.
  - bmj 5y ago
    This isn't necessarily true. I know a wide range of folks that work in union trade positions, and they make very good money. Now, sometimes, those jobs can be unpleasant for awhile (building is behind schedule, etc, etc), but they also last a finite amount of time. To be clear, I'm not suggesting that the trades are a gravy train for everyone, but the idea that you will barely make ends meet is also not the case.
    - jimbokun 5y ago
      > union trade positions But union jobs are at an all time low.
  - slowhand09 5y ago
    I would say of the significant number of tradesmen I've met that owned their own business, practically all worked for someone else. Thats how you acquire the skills to start your own business. I paid two guys to spackle and paint a bathroom, install a vanity and new fixtures. They were the "no experience, but lets start a business" guys you don't want to meet. 2/3 way thru, I stopped them, paid them, gave them one piece of advice - "get a mentor to work FOR". I finished the job myself.
- alphabettsy 5y ago
  Did I say anything to indicate otherwise? In my area nearly every high school including the one I attended offered great programs that for many lead to careers in the trades. I know several people who were in one of the trades programs who decided it wasn’t for them and seemed to wander aimlessly just like many of my friends who went to university. Maybe the issue isn’t opportunity for training or trades vs university? On a side note a skilled trade career can pay very well, but is it reasonable to expect everyone will be a union-member or own a business? Union support seems to be declining in the US and owning and running is business is not for most people.
erdos4d 5y ago
I used to teach calculus in university and I would always find a way to tell my classes how much a plumber makes just to show up at your house and their hourly rate. Almost without exception they were amazed that they would make less as an engineer unless they got lucky and were hired by a top end firm. Definitely the local shipyard which hired most of our graduates couldn't compete with that rate.

bmj 5y ago

You do realize that a career in the skilled trades can lead to very good pay, right? Yes, the work can be hard, and the hours sometimes long, but there are very clear paths to working independently, or for small shops/contractors that provide a nice degree of independence and good pay. I think high school kids in the U.S. should be exposed to STEM, the humanities, and the trades. We have pushed college/academic achievement long enough, and I suspect that some of the data we are seeing represents a backlash against it, particularly when you consider the cost of university and the job prospects for new graduates.

zozbot234 5y ago
> You do realize that a career in the skilled trades can lead to very good pay, right? Only if you can start your independent business, which few can do pretty much by definition. That's still a recipe for bimodal outcomes. And the U.S. has pushed "college achievement" on paper, but their K-12 education still sucks. There's no way that this isn't a drag on college outcomes.
- jeffbee 5y ago
  I knew people who started oilfield welding businesses at the age of 18 right out of high school, bought houses and started families. Yeah that is a boom-and-bust business but then again so is machine learning.
- bmj 5y ago
  This isn't necessarily true. I know a wide range of folks that work in union trade positions, and they make very good money. Now, sometimes, those jobs can be unpleasant for awhile (building is behind schedule, etc, etc), but they also last a finite amount of time. To be clear, I'm not suggesting that the trades are a gravy train for everyone, but the idea that you will barely make ends meet is also not the case.
  - jimbokun 5y ago
    > union trade positions But union jobs are at an all time low.
- slowhand09 5y ago
  I would say of the significant number of tradesmen I've met that owned their own business, practically all worked for someone else. Thats how you acquire the skills to start your own business. I paid two guys to spackle and paint a bathroom, install a vanity and new fixtures. They were the "no experience, but lets start a business" guys you don't want to meet. 2/3 way thru, I stopped them, paid them, gave them one piece of advice - "get a mentor to work FOR". I finished the job myself.
alphabettsy 5y ago
Did I say anything to indicate otherwise? In my area nearly every high school including the one I attended offered great programs that for many lead to careers in the trades. I know several people who were in one of the trades programs who decided it wasn’t for them and seemed to wander aimlessly just like many of my friends who went to university. Maybe the issue isn’t opportunity for training or trades vs university? On a side note a skilled trade career can pay very well, but is it reasonable to expect everyone will be a union-member or own a business? Union support seems to be declining in the US and owning and running is business is not for most people.

erdos4d 5y ago

I used to teach calculus in university and I would always find a way to tell my classes how much a plumber makes just to show up at your house and their hourly rate. Almost without exception they were amazed that they would make less as an engineer unless they got lucky and were hired by a top end firm. Definitely the local shipyard which hired most of our graduates couldn't compete with that rate.