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Isn't the whole, "TikTok spies for China" meme also politically motivated, per the last Republican president? I don't doubt that Bytedance shares Chinese TouTi

Isn't the whole, "TikTok spies for China" meme also politically motivated, per the last Republican president? I don't doubt that Bytedance shares Chinese TouTiao user data with the Chinese government, akin to how Apple does it with iCloud, but Bytedance has been pretty adamant that TikTok is external to China and doesn't share data. Even when there was an executive order to ban TikTok for being a national security threat, they couldn't prove that it was. Does anyone have actual evidence of TikTok sharing with the Chinese government, outside of political hit pieces like the one above?

mdoms 5y ago
> Bytedance has been pretty adamant that TikTok is external to China and doesn't share data Oh well if they've been _adamant_ then I guess it's true.
friedman23 5y ago
Explicit evidence of Tiktok sharing information with the Chinese government is not needed because there is already sufficient evidence that 1. The Chinese government does not deserve our trust. 2. All Chinese businesses are extensions of the Chinese government. The default assumption should be that your information is being sent to China and that China is using Tiktok as an extention of their propaganda arm.
- chrischen 5y ago
  Technically all businesses with a large interest inside X jurisdiction will have leverage against it in some way. For example Microsoft had to hand over its Windows source code to China. By extension of that leverage you can assume that jurisdiction has some control over it. In US it could be national security letters issued to TikTok. In China it could be their equivalent issued to someone physically on their soil.
  - curiousmindz 5y ago
    To be clearer, Microsoft has a program allowing most governments to inspect the source code of Windows. This is not specific to one country.
    - tekknik 5y ago
      Private companies as well
- cvlasdkv 5y ago
  - friedman23 5y ago
    > You claim there is "sufficient evidence" yet provide none Do I need to provide evidence that the Chinese government should not be trusted and that China has control over all businesses based within its borders? This is common knowledge. > I'm less worried than if it were used by American companies to target me specifically for ads You should try practicing what you preach regarding so called xenophobia. Also your defensiveness in this regard is misplaced because my post is not pro American ad companies and it is not pro data collection. I am anti data collection. So not only am I against tiktok because it's controlled by a genocidal dictatorship that has raised a legion of indoctrinated nationalists, I'm anti tiktok because it represents the absolute worst of social media.
    - cvlasdkv 5y ago
      [flagged]
      - friedman23 5y ago
        > Yes, because it's likely your "common knowledge" is a misunderstanding or misrepresentation of reality Fine, you disagree with me, I'm not putting in any more effort discussing this with you because I don't believe you are arguing in good faith. I'll let the reader of HN decide using their own judgement. > Ironically this is most of the world's opinion of America. You keep up bringing up America despite me not mentioning them or even defending the country. This is a classic tactic for derailing conversations.
        tekknik 5y ago
        They’re likely the Chinese gov themselves. Nobody with a sane mind outside of Chinese control can claim xenophobia when the subject is China.
      - 5y ago
- acconrad 5y ago
  What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitchens%27s_razor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitchens%27s_razor
  - friedman23 5y ago
    Like I said in another comment, I'll allow HN readers to use their own judgement. edit: but you know what. Since you want evidence I'll give you some. The entire Alibaba debacle where the CEO was forced into hiding because he dared to contradict the Chinese political elite is my evidence that the Chinese government has implicit control over every business based out of China.
    - ammo1662 5y ago
      Evidence? If I did not use their services and had some friends work at Alibaba, I would trust you.
      - tekknik 5y ago
        How much are you being paid?
        ammo1662 5y ago
        Just less than you
        tekknik 5y ago
        And what am I being paid for? I’m not the one promoting a dictatorship. I’m consistent with my anti-dictatorship message.
        ammo1662 5y ago
        I just shared the information based my real life. I live in China and had some business with Alibaba, even though I don't like the company. I did not say anything about politics or dictatorship, I just shared the fact that Alibaba is still running well. If you think whatever you don't believe is just fake, then you would better go back to watch your CNN. So who is brainwashed?
- beepbooptheory 5y ago
  People are talking about the other parts pretty well, but the idea of a "propaganda arm" seems a little funny to me. What is the propaganda they want to push? To what end?
  - friedman23 5y ago
    > What is the propaganda they want to push? To what end? Propaganda is not just about "pushing" a message but also about smothering discussion. In fact, pushing a message via something like Tiktok is ham fisted, what the Chinese government can do instead is stifle any discussion related to topics that they consider "dangerous". For example, shadow banning any tiktok videos related to the Uighur genocide. They can blame any manipulation on some ranking algorithm.
    - beepbooptheory 5y ago
      But then isn't this circular? They create the app to harvest the data to help them stifle the conversation they have made possible by creating the app in the first place!
      - friedman23 5y ago
        You are assuming that the platform would not exist if the company didn't create it. But if tiktok doesn't exist the discussion would just happen somewhere else. I should also say that I'm not suggesting that tiktok was created for the sole purpose of pushing propaganda from its inception.
        beepbooptheory 5y ago
        Well then I guess there is nothing left to say, as there is absolutely nothing that can be falsified in your beliefs, only the single-minded faith in an absolute national enemy. I only wish y'all could hear yourselves when you say these things, with even a fraction more rational clarity, even an ounce more suspicion of the political narratives at work here. These conversations are deeply troubling to me, makes me absolutely ashamed to be a westerner of any sorts. I think I will go find greener pastures now, thanks for the wake up call, hope you find peace too.
- wbsss4412 5y ago
  Post Snowden leaks, one could pretty much say the same about any American tech giant.
  - ipaddr 5y ago
    It is a little different with the nsa tapping the underwater cable trying to steal info where in China they create an internet where they hire millions of people to watch every conversation happening in real time. One couldn't say the same.. at all.
    - wbsss4412 5y ago
      Yes, if you completely minimize the level of bulk data collection the NSA and the US does through its partners, it’s completely different. You’ve left out all of the prism program, wherein the government had direct access to telecom and tech company servers. What China does inside of China doesn’t have any bearing on the western internet. The topic at hand is the data collection that tic tok is engaging in, which already has plenty of precedent in the west, unfortunately. It’s completely contrary to the values enshrined in the US constitution to make arguments like, “ah well but that person/group/country is bad and we aren’t” the entire political theory our nation is supposed to be built on is the notion that people with too much power will do bad things.
    - dumb1224 5y ago
      > watch every conversation happening in real time Eh.... are you sure? A lot of my childhood friends are now working in various ares of what you might consider 'authoritative post' or the infamous 有关部门 but I think it's still a bit too divorced from reality. Censorship and blatant blockage for sure but millions spying on billions in real time? I don't think that's how they work.
      - wbsss4412 5y ago
        Yes, parent’s assertion is fairly preposterous. There is no way one could conduct surveillance on that scale in a non automated fashion. There are too many resources required.
vineyardmike 5y ago
> Bytedance has been pretty adamant that TikTok is external to China and doesn't share data. Considering that there are TikTok employees in china - both engineers and moderators, there is no chance that china doesn't influence TikTok. Even Zoom which is a clearly american company that has chinese employees wasn't immune to chinese influence. source: i personally know a tiktok employee in china.
- yorwba 5y ago
  Does that TikTok employee you know have access to user data?
  - vineyardmike 5y ago
    Does it matter? The presence of an office full of people in china means that there is an office full of people that can be exploited and controlled by the Chinese government. Also, until recently they employed moderators in china, who by definition have access to customer data. So yes, the Chinese offices have/had access to customer data.
    - yorwba 5y ago
      Many globally operating software companies have offices full of people in China, but presumably they have access controls in place to minimize the risk of data exfiltration. On the other hand, many of the same companies have been involved in scandals where employees abused their position to stalk people or whatever, so maybe their access controls aren't actually that strict. So it would've been interesting to hear about TikTok's internal security culture. I'm not sure whether I'd call what moderators get "access to customer data", since it's not like they're in control, right? And aren't the posts they're moderating usually public anyway?
kant_adorn_arts 5y ago
And this is where the conversation derails - when someone asks for evidence.
Diesel555 5y ago
To answer your question on evidence, when I'm looking for information on politically charged questions I often reference the Congressional Research Service whose purpose it is to take complex issues and boil them down to something digestible and generally apolitical for Congress (I know that's hard to believe, but I've read a lot of them, they are way less political than most other sources I find). Here is the one on TikTok with references. https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/R/R46543 https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/R/R46543 I was going to give quotes from the CRS, but there are so many. If you want to learn about current issues just go to the home page and search with an empty search field. https://crsreports.congress.gov https://crsreports.congress.gov I check it daily.

mdoms 5y ago

> Bytedance has been pretty adamant that TikTok is external to China and doesn't share data Oh well if they've been _adamant_ then I guess it's true.

friedman23 5y ago

Explicit evidence of Tiktok sharing information with the Chinese government is not needed because there is already sufficient evidence that 1. The Chinese government does not deserve our trust. 2. All Chinese businesses are extensions of the Chinese government. The default assumption should be that your information is being sent to China and that China is using Tiktok as an extention of their propaganda arm.

chrischen 5y ago
Technically all businesses with a large interest inside X jurisdiction will have leverage against it in some way. For example Microsoft had to hand over its Windows source code to China. By extension of that leverage you can assume that jurisdiction has some control over it. In US it could be national security letters issued to TikTok. In China it could be their equivalent issued to someone physically on their soil.
- curiousmindz 5y ago
  To be clearer, Microsoft has a program allowing most governments to inspect the source code of Windows. This is not specific to one country.
  - tekknik 5y ago
    Private companies as well
cvlasdkv 5y ago
- friedman23 5y ago
  > You claim there is "sufficient evidence" yet provide none Do I need to provide evidence that the Chinese government should not be trusted and that China has control over all businesses based within its borders? This is common knowledge. > I'm less worried than if it were used by American companies to target me specifically for ads You should try practicing what you preach regarding so called xenophobia. Also your defensiveness in this regard is misplaced because my post is not pro American ad companies and it is not pro data collection. I am anti data collection. So not only am I against tiktok because it's controlled by a genocidal dictatorship that has raised a legion of indoctrinated nationalists, I'm anti tiktok because it represents the absolute worst of social media.
  - cvlasdkv 5y ago
    [flagged]
    - friedman23 5y ago
      > Yes, because it's likely your "common knowledge" is a misunderstanding or misrepresentation of reality Fine, you disagree with me, I'm not putting in any more effort discussing this with you because I don't believe you are arguing in good faith. I'll let the reader of HN decide using their own judgement. > Ironically this is most of the world's opinion of America. You keep up bringing up America despite me not mentioning them or even defending the country. This is a classic tactic for derailing conversations.
      - tekknik 5y ago
        They’re likely the Chinese gov themselves. Nobody with a sane mind outside of Chinese control can claim xenophobia when the subject is China.
    - 5y ago
acconrad 5y ago
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitchens%27s_razor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitchens%27s_razor
- friedman23 5y ago
  Like I said in another comment, I'll allow HN readers to use their own judgement. edit: but you know what. Since you want evidence I'll give you some. The entire Alibaba debacle where the CEO was forced into hiding because he dared to contradict the Chinese political elite is my evidence that the Chinese government has implicit control over every business based out of China.
  - ammo1662 5y ago
    Evidence? If I did not use their services and had some friends work at Alibaba, I would trust you.
    - tekknik 5y ago
      How much are you being paid?
      - ammo1662 5y ago
        Just less than you
        tekknik 5y ago
        And what am I being paid for? I’m not the one promoting a dictatorship. I’m consistent with my anti-dictatorship message.
        ammo1662 5y ago
        I just shared the information based my real life. I live in China and had some business with Alibaba, even though I don't like the company. I did not say anything about politics or dictatorship, I just shared the fact that Alibaba is still running well. If you think whatever you don't believe is just fake, then you would better go back to watch your CNN. So who is brainwashed?
beepbooptheory 5y ago
People are talking about the other parts pretty well, but the idea of a "propaganda arm" seems a little funny to me. What is the propaganda they want to push? To what end?
- friedman23 5y ago
  > What is the propaganda they want to push? To what end? Propaganda is not just about "pushing" a message but also about smothering discussion. In fact, pushing a message via something like Tiktok is ham fisted, what the Chinese government can do instead is stifle any discussion related to topics that they consider "dangerous". For example, shadow banning any tiktok videos related to the Uighur genocide. They can blame any manipulation on some ranking algorithm.
  - beepbooptheory 5y ago
    But then isn't this circular? They create the app to harvest the data to help them stifle the conversation they have made possible by creating the app in the first place!
    - friedman23 5y ago
      You are assuming that the platform would not exist if the company didn't create it. But if tiktok doesn't exist the discussion would just happen somewhere else. I should also say that I'm not suggesting that tiktok was created for the sole purpose of pushing propaganda from its inception.
      - beepbooptheory 5y ago
        Well then I guess there is nothing left to say, as there is absolutely nothing that can be falsified in your beliefs, only the single-minded faith in an absolute national enemy. I only wish y'all could hear yourselves when you say these things, with even a fraction more rational clarity, even an ounce more suspicion of the political narratives at work here. These conversations are deeply troubling to me, makes me absolutely ashamed to be a westerner of any sorts. I think I will go find greener pastures now, thanks for the wake up call, hope you find peace too.
wbsss4412 5y ago
Post Snowden leaks, one could pretty much say the same about any American tech giant.
- ipaddr 5y ago
  It is a little different with the nsa tapping the underwater cable trying to steal info where in China they create an internet where they hire millions of people to watch every conversation happening in real time. One couldn't say the same.. at all.
  - wbsss4412 5y ago
    Yes, if you completely minimize the level of bulk data collection the NSA and the US does through its partners, it’s completely different. You’ve left out all of the prism program, wherein the government had direct access to telecom and tech company servers. What China does inside of China doesn’t have any bearing on the western internet. The topic at hand is the data collection that tic tok is engaging in, which already has plenty of precedent in the west, unfortunately. It’s completely contrary to the values enshrined in the US constitution to make arguments like, “ah well but that person/group/country is bad and we aren’t” the entire political theory our nation is supposed to be built on is the notion that people with too much power will do bad things.
  - dumb1224 5y ago
    > watch every conversation happening in real time Eh.... are you sure? A lot of my childhood friends are now working in various ares of what you might consider 'authoritative post' or the infamous 有关部门 but I think it's still a bit too divorced from reality. Censorship and blatant blockage for sure but millions spying on billions in real time? I don't think that's how they work.
    - wbsss4412 5y ago
      Yes, parent’s assertion is fairly preposterous. There is no way one could conduct surveillance on that scale in a non automated fashion. There are too many resources required.

vineyardmike 5y ago

> Bytedance has been pretty adamant that TikTok is external to China and doesn't share data. Considering that there are TikTok employees in china - both engineers and moderators, there is no chance that china doesn't influence TikTok. Even Zoom which is a clearly american company that has chinese employees wasn't immune to chinese influence. source: i personally know a tiktok employee in china.

yorwba 5y ago
Does that TikTok employee you know have access to user data?
- vineyardmike 5y ago
  Does it matter? The presence of an office full of people in china means that there is an office full of people that can be exploited and controlled by the Chinese government. Also, until recently they employed moderators in china, who by definition have access to customer data. So yes, the Chinese offices have/had access to customer data.
  - yorwba 5y ago
    Many globally operating software companies have offices full of people in China, but presumably they have access controls in place to minimize the risk of data exfiltration. On the other hand, many of the same companies have been involved in scandals where employees abused their position to stalk people or whatever, so maybe their access controls aren't actually that strict. So it would've been interesting to hear about TikTok's internal security culture. I'm not sure whether I'd call what moderators get "access to customer data", since it's not like they're in control, right? And aren't the posts they're moderating usually public anyway?

kant_adorn_arts 5y ago

And this is where the conversation derails - when someone asks for evidence.

Diesel555 5y ago

To answer your question on evidence, when I'm looking for information on politically charged questions I often reference the Congressional Research Service whose purpose it is to take complex issues and boil them down to something digestible and generally apolitical for Congress (I know that's hard to believe, but I've read a lot of them, they are way less political than most other sources I find). Here is the one on TikTok with references. https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/R/R46543 https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/R/R46543 I was going to give quotes from the CRS, but there are so many. If you want to learn about current issues just go to the home page and search with an empty search field. https://crsreports.congress.gov https://crsreports.congress.gov I check it daily.