25 ms·

TikTok shares your data more than any other app and it’s unclear where it goes

474 points by underscore_ku 5y ago

MichaelRazum 5y ago
Just curious. May it be that TikTok pushes more anti US and pro Chinese clips? I mean it was just my observation using the app, that if I'm getting political clips it is mostly against the west and never against china.
blakesterz 5y ago
I found the actual report this is based on even more interesting: https://app.urlgeni.us/blog/new-research-across-200-ios-apps-hints-surveillance-marketing-may-still-be-going-strong https://app.urlgeni.us/blog/new-research-across-200-ios-apps... Just a few of the highlights: Magazine apps had the highest number of total network contacts (28), and the highest percentage of third party domain contacts (93%) Social apps, followed by Games apps, made the fewest number of network contacts, 6 and 7 respectively. Apps making the most number network contacts included iHeartRadio (56), Wall Street Journal (48), ESPN (42), Popeyes (42), and WattPad (36)
- fernandopj 5y ago
  Revenue streams. These network contacts provide $$$ to those companies. They're low effort, easy revenue for them. Privacy for customers be d*mned. I once met a senior-level dev who worked for a company, they wouldn't have their own app on his phone, due to those invasive practices tracking his behaviour.
  - ethbr0 5y ago
    I thought the most curious was the ratio of third:first party domains for magazines and news. It suggests they control very little of their technical, revenue-generating infrastructure. Which is interesting when the narrative is "The internet is destroying journalism." But another way to phrase it might be "All of these companies drastically underinvested in web/mobile, and continue to do so." (Although the NYT seems to have a higher ratio than most, but I believe they divorced themselves from Google and brought a lot back in-house?)
    - The-Bus 5y ago
      It's a matter of scale in relation to your audience and data. Your local news site with users in the tens of thousands, is unlikely to have the capital to invest in geographic and demographic tracking necessary to provide a robust ads business. Easier to plug into a number of providers who already have that data about their visitors. These sites have to do that to remain competitive.
- waffleiron 5y ago
  Also, the report makes the title seem very biased. Home Depot, Reuters, WSJ are all using more 3th party trackers.
  - phsh 5y ago
    I think who they are sharing with (potentially) matters more than the number of orgs they are sharing with.
- ethbr0 5y ago
  Agreed, the underlying was more interested than the summary. And also seems to be a case of measuring what's conveniently measurable. The fact that {product} has only 1 connection to {product first party domain} doesn't say a lot about anything, given they could be internally proxying to and from who knows how many partners? It'd be more helpful to at least see total traffic per domain. It made me curious that the highest "first-party ratio" companies tended to be tech companies capable of realizing their own architectures (Amazon/Google/Apple).
  - zerocrates 5y ago
    Yes, third-party direct connections from apps is useful information in some ways and I'd prefer to keep it down rather than spread things around widely. But what people are really worried about with Facebook or TikTok or whoever building and aggregating information about them, doesn't require talking to a third party at all, and if you clamp down on these direct connections everything could just pass through the "first party" and through to whoever they wish on the server side where you can't see the connections anyway.
saturdaysaint 5y ago
I feel like TikTok is significantly underdiscussed, almost like the tech and business press are assuming it's a flash-in-the-pan more similar to Snapchat than Facebook. It is almost certainly having a major impact on the business of some of the most prominent publicly traded companies in the US, yet there are just a handful of articles discussing their impact on Facebook's disastrous quarterly results.
- guelo 5y ago
  Facebook has generated so much well-earned hate that even the most nationalistic Americans aren't going to come to its defense.
  - Day1 5y ago
    An odd contrast considering non-nationalistic Americans are usually the first to defend Big Business and Big Government.
    - HWR_14 5y ago
      I think you are each using nationalist a different way. I'm pretty sure the GP meant it as "buy American" nationalists and you meant it as "I want an ethnostate" nationalists.
- bertil 5y ago
  The aspect that worries me the most is the recommendation: Facebook and Twitter discovered a little late that they had the ability to to influence opinion with simple tweaks. That raised internal questions and that model is under close surveillance by people who have talked about those questions in public and who I know have and would raise, at least internally, their concerns. People can explore the updates from their friends and can identity ommissions. Snap is more secretive, but their employees are loud Californians who can about justice, they have access to journalists if they feel the need to push back. Users can also see updates from their friends and people their follow without just having to trust the flow. I don’t believe that TikTok has a similar internal culture of debate. I haven’t seen anything published by their academic team. I don’t believe that you can check on your friend’s page to see what they posted lately. They are examples of topics that they have favoured or censored that was worrisome and they didn’t adress the controversy. The pool of possible content is much larger so there’s more opportunity to fill strategically. I know people who work for one but not the other, so I understand that this influence my judgement but I believe that their are objective difference in company values and product design that make TikTok more able to manipulate. I haven’t seen anyone discuss that, and I have plenty of people who discuss those questions profesionally in my feed.
tiepoul 5y ago
We should be aware that any free app that we can use has its business model or any method that somehow benefits the company.
- yumraj 5y ago
  Except in this case it’s not just the company but rather the country, China, and the CCP
  - Kaze404 5y ago
    What makes you think this is an exception?
robbedpeter 5y ago
It's not unclear at all. It's Chinese data harvesting software. They'll do token public appeasement to avoid negative pressure, but every feature in the app is designed to collect biometrics and behavioral data. China is not a good faith operator. Given the data needed to influence public opinion and voting, they will engage in manipulation favorable to their interests. That alone is sufficient to run tiktok at a loss, but the market manipulation possible, advertisement platform potential, and other monetization makes it look like just another app. Google's been caught red handed deliberately manipulating political content. https://mygoogleresearch.com/ https://mygoogleresearch.com/ The idea that tiktok isn't used for the same type of manipulation is dangerously naive. There's a need for social media manipulation watchdogs that can monitor content being delivered to different users so the companies and countries involved can be held accountable. It's sad that a massively scaled invasion of privacy can only be countered by more surveillance. Because of the ephemeral nature of tiktok interactions, the only way to combat manipulation is to surveil the content being delivered to user feeds and compare subsequent opinion poling and purchases.
- lelandfe 5y ago
  > Google's been caught red handed deliberately manipulating political content Sorry, do you have a better link handy? This primarily looks like a fundraising page.
  - maxehmookau 5y ago
    A really strange fundraising page too that claims to be non-partisan but quotes three different far-right hacks.
    - cloutchaser 5y ago
      I'm really curious, can you name someone who you think is just "right"? Like who isn't "far-right" in your opinion?
      - maxehmookau 5y ago
JoeyBananas 5y ago
straight to China
anonymouse008 5y ago
Just ask yourself: who has what incentives? A state actor always desires insight into an adversary. The survival of nations depends on being able to either cooperate with others or subdue those who will not. The result of a state's strategy in these arenas is predominantly determined by their ability to predict the counterpart's behaviors, both at a citizen and leadership level. Why TikTok is not seen as the ultimate embodiment of these incentives and immediately banned from the US is beyond me.
- boomboomsubban 5y ago
  >Just ask yourself: who has what incentives? The company for more money? Similar to the incentives behind Google and Facebook.
  - anonymouse008 5y ago
    [Edit] For those curious: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqmZsUbYIfA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqmZsUbYIfA
    - dymk 5y ago
      What's does that saying even mean?
cosarara 5y ago
What kind of data? TikTok knows what content I interact to... on tiktok. That's it. Unless they have an android 0-day or something. It has no access to my mic, camera, browsing history, contacts list, or anything useful. Guess who has access to all that, if they want it, though? Google and Facebook (through whatsapp). What is the privacy concern here, exactly?
- taterbase 5y ago
  If you've logged in it can potentially match your login information or email address to other activity on the web. TikTok's servers could also place you geographically somewhat roughly based on ip address. Outside of that I agree. It's unclear what data TikTok is supposedly gathering that other apps aren't already and why that's a cause for alarm.
  - toqy 5y ago
    Phase 1: Collect data about what users like to watch on TikTok Phase 2: ??? Phase 3: The world is now controlled by China and we are doing full communism
    - Cd00d 5y ago
      You're being downvoted, but got a chuckle out of me.
    - bobkazamakis 5y ago
      but you don't understand! This is taking away from AMERICAN profits from surveillance capitalism! Think of the jobs at stake!
- altdataseller 5y ago
  When you sign up for an account, they also can find the friends in your Contact that also have a TikTok account. But you can bypass this of course. Other than that, I'm also a bit confused as to what data they have access to
- financetechbro 5y ago
sydthrowaway 5y ago
The conversation here on HN is quite funny. I can imagine the same conversation taking place in China: the data on US apps goes straight to the US government.
- gmm1990 5y ago
  Yeah at one point (probably still) didn't all data just go to the NSA.
  - ashwagary 5y ago
    NSA takes pride in knowing what every European leader said and did on their personal cellphone this morning.
  - duxup 5y ago
    >didn't all data just go to the NSA. "all" is so general that I think it's kinda hard to really address that.
    - williamscales 5y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A
      - duxup 5y ago
        I'm aware of that. This is what I meant by how hard it is to talk about 'all'. Someone says all and then someone gives an example that's not all and so what are we talking about? Ultimately I think there are differences between country A and country B's methods and etc.
        williamscales 5y ago
        Yeah, I mean what is “all”? In terms of internet traffic, my understanding is that the NSA would have access to a significant fraction of all of it via this room (and perhaps others). A significant enough fraction that there’s a high likelihood any given internet communication could be intercepted. Maybe not every time but enough stuff routes through the US that eventually it will be seen. So to me I’ve feel comfortable using “all” in a loose (empirical) sense. But I see your point that it’s not as clear.
alangibson 5y ago
I'm not a fan of Sinophobia, but the CCP has made it very clear that home grown tech companies will be in full cooperation with the state. With that in mind, consider how much user data TikTok has and what might be done with it.
Etheryte 5y ago
One thing that I found very interesting when I looked into what TikTok does: it's scary good at aggregating data about you. I live in a foreign country, my phone's network is behind a VPN to a different foreign country and I gave the app no extra permissions, yet somehow I still got recommended content from the country where I was born. Since it's a small country there's no way that's a coincidence. I'm both intrigued and spooked as to how they figured that connection out.
- gs17 5y ago
  Does your native country use a different language and you have something set to it on your phone? I had a Korean friend get freaked out by similar, but we figured out that he had something fingerprintable set to use Korean even though his interface was set to English.
  - Etheryte 5y ago
    My home country does have its own language, yes, but all of my devices (and their virtual keyboards) are in English.
- toqy 5y ago
  I'd probably be more worried about a flaw in your own setup vs TikTok uniquely being able to circumvent it
  - Etheryte 5y ago
    I'm all ears if you have any suggestions, so far I haven't seen a plausible explanation though.
    - GordonS 5y ago
      Could be as simple as one time you forgot to use the VPN.
      - Etheryte 5y ago
legrande 5y ago
I refuse to download TikTok because I think we've reached peak social media and don't need another app that siphons off data and turns it into gold ingots. Besides, TikTok videos leak out into other platforms and you can tell by the little logo in the video that it was ripped from TikTok. It's just Vine 2.0[1]. Many Vine videos got ripped and re-posted to YouTube so we have a small piece of internet culture surviving the death of an app and preserved. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vine_(service) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vine_(service)
AbbeFaria 5y ago
I’m shocked, shocked that TikTok is invasively gathering user data.
waffleiron 5y ago
OP changed the title, it nowhere says "any other app".
- capableweb 5y ago
  Reading the title at cnbc right now says "TikTok shares your data more than any other social media app — and it’s unclear where it goes, study says" for me. I guess it was edited to get shorter and within the 80 character limit that HN has for submission titles.
  - waffleiron 5y ago
    "TikTok shares your data more than any other social media app" fits easily in the 80 character limit. No need to change "any other social media app" to "any other app" for that reason. This feels like it's actively trying to mislead people.
    - capableweb 5y ago
      Unless they wanna keep the "and it’s unclear where it goes" part of course, which seems like they wanted to. I'm not saying you're wrong, just that there can be multiple reasons, and it's not that obvious of why. In any other way, social media applications surely are the ones that extract the most data, and TikTok being on top of that list makes it to the top of the list of total applications too.
partiallypro 5y ago
I don't understand what useful information could be harvested, as unlike Google/Facebook there is no massive tracking pixel product that follows you across the web. I'm a massive critic of the CCP, but I don't see what useful information they would get from this. I think a bigger "conspiracy theory" I'd buy into would be the algrorithm exploiting political extremes and pushing insane voices to the top...but every social media/media company does that in some way (though not always intentionally.)
- classified 5y ago
  Behavioral data. If you know how to analyze it, it will give you the ability to predict and manipulate.
  - adlorger 5y ago
    1. Having Data 2. Using it to Predict 3. Using it to Manipulate There are major, major leaps from collection to then even having effective prediction models. Prediction is hard, especially when it comes to longer term behaviors. Manipulation is extremely hard especially when the content space is so crowded. My fear of TikTok is far more mundane. It just dulls us into the most passive form of entertainment the world has ever known making us a basically disengaged, lifeless people. Its the modal opposite in life to 'touching grass'.
    - asdff 5y ago
      >My fear of TikTok is far more mundane. It just dulls us into the most passive form of entertainment the world has ever known making us a basically disengaged, lifeless people. Its the modal opposite in life to 'touching grass'. Nail on the head. When I was first sent a link to a tik tok post, it was jarring, because as soon as that video ended another random video popped up and started playing full volume. It's a constant never ending stream of content. As long as you are looking at the app, there is not one moment where your attention isn't captured. You have no time for independent thoughts. How do you even think in long form topics when you interject your attention span with these videos constantly? I think there will be a time when there is a mountain of research showing how harmful this 'fast food content' type of platform can be for mental health, and we really do consider platforms like ticktok or other attention demanding patterns like autoplaying instagram stories or a constant stream of youtube videos like we consider smoking tobacco today. People really need to be meditating and thinking freely, but it seems the technologists have decided monetizing (or at least convincing investors you are monetizing) all available time for independent thought is too profitable.
champagnois 5y ago
Society would rejoice if most of the social media entities were banned or blocked.
McHankHenry 5y ago
The title and article smells of China-bad-clickbait. There's no uncertainty here. Like in every other case, it goes to any company that is willing to purchase it. Overwhelmingly it will be American companies using it for direct marketing.
- Tryk 5y ago
  How can you say there's no uncertainty here. Do you work at TikTok or do you have information beyond the article to ground your claim?
uhtred 5y ago
This is why I only install a few absolutely necessary apps, and mostly from fdroid. It makes me anxious to see friends install 3 different electric scooter apps in the space of 10 minutes just to try and unlock a scooter. I doubt those apps ever get removed once no longer needed.
- dragonelite 5y ago
  Why or you can just accept the fact that your phone is your personal bug device your willingly carry around. The only safe space is your brain/thoughts and even that space is something they want to monitor with computer-brain interfaces.
reilly3000 5y ago
I think there is a case for a mandatory warning label, like on the app store and 5 sec interstitial that says: “ Warning: this application sends your behavior to a foreign party. It may be stored indefinitely and used for personal retribution, social scoring, and manipulation of your political views. Proceed with caution”. If that seems extreme, an outright ban of the app is worse. The US and others have had a good history of getting results this way, but it still respects individual and corporate liberties. Thoughts?
- Ekaros 5y ago
  I think this should be included if there is non-zero risk that any foreign party other than maker of the app can read the data. That is if there is theoretical risk of it leaking or the encryption being used being broken by any party.
- pessimizer 5y ago
  Why should domestic parties get a bye here?
lancesells 5y ago
> For TikTok, the results were even more mysterious: 13 of the 14 network contacts on the popular social media app were from third parties. The third-party tracking still happened even when users didn’t opt into allowing tracking in each app’s settings, according to the study. It seems like Apple is lacking on tracking enforcement of privacy. This mobile marketing company can do this so I'm guessing Apple has the resources to do this properly. You could even do it for the largest 1000 apps.
- qqtt 5y ago
  Beyond removing the unique identifier that allows advertisers to track you across applications (IDFA), Apple really hasn't done much to enforce tracking via other means. Depending on who you talk to, they tacitly endorse any and all non-IDFA tracking even when users opt out. https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/09/23/iphone-tracking/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/09/23/iphone-...
throwaway874653 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
josephd79 5y ago
China has taken over our youth.
- balls187 5y ago
  A buddy of mine lamented something similar recently. He was talking about the free apps his children use on their tablets, and while he likes diversity, was astonished at how much of the apps were pushing chinese culture. Both my boys (neither are ethnic Chinese) speak mandarin. None have come home from school espousing any ideals that differ from our family values, but it will be interesting to see as they grow. Final off-topic comment, the world of Firefly is one where Chinese culture became the dominant culture (though for obvious reasons the show is in English)
Graffur 5y ago
Even if it didn't share data.. it's designed from the beginning to be addictive. While other platforms like Facebook and Instagram grew into being platforms with aims to be addictive, I believe they started in a more neutral place. This type of app should be treated like smoking imo. Queue the "you can find educational material on tiktok!" posts by the subset of HN who really love the app and the company.
- asdff 5y ago
  It's too jarring to me with the constant playing of the next thing. It's just content content content with no free time in between for you to be alone with your own thoughts. You could spend three hours on the app and have no time for a single independent thought of your own at all. At least three hours in front of cable TV would mean you'd do some introspection when you got up to pee during the commercials.
  - Graffur 5y ago
    Yeah, and I have done exactly that. I am vocal about not liking the app but it can still suck me in. I have spent hours lying in bed just scrolling..
- randomsearch 5y ago
  Yes, as Cal Newport would point out - it’s not that social apps aren’t in some way useful, it’s whether the value they deliver is worth the price they exact by “stealing” large amounts of your time.
deleted 5y ago
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discardedrefuse 5y ago
It ridiculous how TikTok keeps getting a pass from practically everyone. Are memories so short lived? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21725139 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21725139 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23634138 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23634138 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23684950 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23684950 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26477064 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26477064
xinniethepooh 5y ago
I occasionally check TikTok to see what it's like. I notice quite a bit of very "pro-China" type propaganda; idyllic Chinese farmers teaching their kids, muscular Chinese male athletes, etc. Very much a tool to influence Western users and thought.
coliveira 5y ago
I believe that Facebook and Google collect more of my data than any other company in the world. And I know very well that they share all that data with US intelligence, because that's what they are required to do. That said, I don't see any problem in using another countries' app that might be doing the same thing that bigger violators like FB and Google are already doing. And, notice, I live in the US. For people oversees I can guarantee that this sentiment is even more common.
- babypuncher 5y ago
  Who they are sharing it with shouldn't even matter. The act of covertly collecting it and giving users no real recourse is the problem, and what we should regulate. Turn the social networks into dumb feeds driven by explicit user choices rather than algorithms. Solve that problem, and you solve the TikTok problem. But people don't want to talk about that. They want to ban the platforms they perceive as being used to push an opposing political agenda while preserving the platforms they themselves abuse for the same purpose. It is almost funny seeing people who directly benefited from Cambridge Analytica/Facebook turn around and complain about TikTok.
kyleblarson 5y ago
It goes to China.
llacb47 5y ago
Without a list of the third-party domains the tiktok app contacted, this study is useless and unproven
jmnicolas 5y ago
When you're from Europe, it's funny (in a cringe way) to see the Americans cry because the Chinese spy more than them!
oyebenny 5y ago
No shit.
TheMightyLlama 5y ago
I think one of the things we don’t appreciate (perhaps most of the people on HN do) is that many of these platforms are not, as billed, social networks. They are, in fact, data collecting applications with a user facing, attention acquisition mechanism in the form of a fun little app. They are addictive for a reason. To get data off you.
kornhole 5y ago
Articles such as these frame the debate around comparing different corporate and government influenced social media and never mention free social media as an alternative. https://fediverse.party/ https://fediverse.party/
- nicce 5y ago
  Very few services are actually totally free or with neutral purpose. On larger scale, it is really hard.
  - kornhole 5y ago
    Yes they cost me electricity, bandwidth, and time to administer. They are free of advertising, data tracking, and influence of corporations or governments. My friends who use the ones I host can donate money, but I have never asked them.
kornhole 5y ago
Why does this and many similar articles frame the debate around comparing different corporate and government influenced social media platforms without mentioning free community run social media as an alternative? https://fediverse.party/ https://fediverse.party/
lucic71 5y ago
fuzzyset 5y ago
These types of articles always frustrate me because the authors never seem to question where and how these apps are getting your data. These APIs and privileges are granted by iOS and Android. If only we had real privacy legislation in the US that could limit what is exposed to apps rather than being at the mercy of Google and Apple to put limits in place. It's not like TikTok is hacking into your phone ...
magwa101 5y ago
stuckkeys 5y ago
Really? Unclear to where it goes? Really? Alright I know it is a bait article but the author is a god damn idiot.
zthething 5y ago
Kinda makes Google look like a saint.
brailsafe 5y ago
Says the website with 13 social trackers, among 40 total trackers that Firefox Focus blocks by default.
togs 5y ago
Nobody knows where any of their data goes and few people care. Tiktok is currently better at Algorithms than other SM, go figure. Some people hate Tiktok because they’ve never used it and incorrectly think it’s all dancing 14 year olds; others simply hate China because despite having a market economy its government has a little more power than in the West, which allows China to sometimes act outside the myopic lens of market logic when necessary (blasphemy) while reaping the market’s gains.

474 points by underscore_ku 5y ago

Just curious. May it be that TikTok pushes more anti US and pro Chinese clips? I mean it was just my observation using the app, that if I'm getting political clips it is mostly against the west and never against china.

blakesterz 5y ago

I found the actual report this is based on even more interesting: https://app.urlgeni.us/blog/new-research-across-200-ios-apps-hints-surveillance-marketing-may-still-be-going-strong https://app.urlgeni.us/blog/new-research-across-200-ios-apps... Just a few of the highlights: Magazine apps had the highest number of total network contacts (28), and the highest percentage of third party domain contacts (93%) Social apps, followed by Games apps, made the fewest number of network contacts, 6 and 7 respectively. Apps making the most number network contacts included iHeartRadio (56), Wall Street Journal (48), ESPN (42), Popeyes (42), and WattPad (36)

fernandopj 5y ago
Revenue streams. These network contacts provide $$$ to those companies. They're low effort, easy revenue for them. Privacy for customers be d*mned. I once met a senior-level dev who worked for a company, they wouldn't have their own app on his phone, due to those invasive practices tracking his behaviour.
- ethbr0 5y ago
  I thought the most curious was the ratio of third:first party domains for magazines and news. It suggests they control very little of their technical, revenue-generating infrastructure. Which is interesting when the narrative is "The internet is destroying journalism." But another way to phrase it might be "All of these companies drastically underinvested in web/mobile, and continue to do so." (Although the NYT seems to have a higher ratio than most, but I believe they divorced themselves from Google and brought a lot back in-house?)
  - The-Bus 5y ago
    It's a matter of scale in relation to your audience and data. Your local news site with users in the tens of thousands, is unlikely to have the capital to invest in geographic and demographic tracking necessary to provide a robust ads business. Easier to plug into a number of providers who already have that data about their visitors. These sites have to do that to remain competitive.
waffleiron 5y ago
Also, the report makes the title seem very biased. Home Depot, Reuters, WSJ are all using more 3th party trackers.
- phsh 5y ago
  I think who they are sharing with (potentially) matters more than the number of orgs they are sharing with.
ethbr0 5y ago
Agreed, the underlying was more interested than the summary. And also seems to be a case of measuring what's conveniently measurable. The fact that {product} has only 1 connection to {product first party domain} doesn't say a lot about anything, given they could be internally proxying to and from who knows how many partners? It'd be more helpful to at least see total traffic per domain. It made me curious that the highest "first-party ratio" companies tended to be tech companies capable of realizing their own architectures (Amazon/Google/Apple).
- zerocrates 5y ago
  Yes, third-party direct connections from apps is useful information in some ways and I'd prefer to keep it down rather than spread things around widely. But what people are really worried about with Facebook or TikTok or whoever building and aggregating information about them, doesn't require talking to a third party at all, and if you clamp down on these direct connections everything could just pass through the "first party" and through to whoever they wish on the server side where you can't see the connections anyway.

saturdaysaint 5y ago

I feel like TikTok is significantly underdiscussed, almost like the tech and business press are assuming it's a flash-in-the-pan more similar to Snapchat than Facebook. It is almost certainly having a major impact on the business of some of the most prominent publicly traded companies in the US, yet there are just a handful of articles discussing their impact on Facebook's disastrous quarterly results.

guelo 5y ago
Facebook has generated so much well-earned hate that even the most nationalistic Americans aren't going to come to its defense.
- Day1 5y ago
  An odd contrast considering non-nationalistic Americans are usually the first to defend Big Business and Big Government.
  - HWR_14 5y ago
    I think you are each using nationalist a different way. I'm pretty sure the GP meant it as "buy American" nationalists and you meant it as "I want an ethnostate" nationalists.
bertil 5y ago
The aspect that worries me the most is the recommendation: Facebook and Twitter discovered a little late that they had the ability to to influence opinion with simple tweaks. That raised internal questions and that model is under close surveillance by people who have talked about those questions in public and who I know have and would raise, at least internally, their concerns. People can explore the updates from their friends and can identity ommissions. Snap is more secretive, but their employees are loud Californians who can about justice, they have access to journalists if they feel the need to push back. Users can also see updates from their friends and people their follow without just having to trust the flow. I don’t believe that TikTok has a similar internal culture of debate. I haven’t seen anything published by their academic team. I don’t believe that you can check on your friend’s page to see what they posted lately. They are examples of topics that they have favoured or censored that was worrisome and they didn’t adress the controversy. The pool of possible content is much larger so there’s more opportunity to fill strategically. I know people who work for one but not the other, so I understand that this influence my judgement but I believe that their are objective difference in company values and product design that make TikTok more able to manipulate. I haven’t seen anyone discuss that, and I have plenty of people who discuss those questions profesionally in my feed.

tiepoul 5y ago

We should be aware that any free app that we can use has its business model or any method that somehow benefits the company.

yumraj 5y ago
Except in this case it’s not just the company but rather the country, China, and the CCP
- Kaze404 5y ago
  What makes you think this is an exception?

robbedpeter 5y ago

It's not unclear at all. It's Chinese data harvesting software. They'll do token public appeasement to avoid negative pressure, but every feature in the app is designed to collect biometrics and behavioral data. China is not a good faith operator. Given the data needed to influence public opinion and voting, they will engage in manipulation favorable to their interests. That alone is sufficient to run tiktok at a loss, but the market manipulation possible, advertisement platform potential, and other monetization makes it look like just another app. Google's been caught red handed deliberately manipulating political content. https://mygoogleresearch.com/ https://mygoogleresearch.com/ The idea that tiktok isn't used for the same type of manipulation is dangerously naive. There's a need for social media manipulation watchdogs that can monitor content being delivered to different users so the companies and countries involved can be held accountable. It's sad that a massively scaled invasion of privacy can only be countered by more surveillance. Because of the ephemeral nature of tiktok interactions, the only way to combat manipulation is to surveil the content being delivered to user feeds and compare subsequent opinion poling and purchases.

lelandfe 5y ago
> Google's been caught red handed deliberately manipulating political content Sorry, do you have a better link handy? This primarily looks like a fundraising page.
- maxehmookau 5y ago
  A really strange fundraising page too that claims to be non-partisan but quotes three different far-right hacks.
  - cloutchaser 5y ago
    I'm really curious, can you name someone who you think is just "right"? Like who isn't "far-right" in your opinion?
    - maxehmookau 5y ago

JoeyBananas 5y ago

straight to China

anonymouse008 5y ago

Just ask yourself: who has what incentives? A state actor always desires insight into an adversary. The survival of nations depends on being able to either cooperate with others or subdue those who will not. The result of a state's strategy in these arenas is predominantly determined by their ability to predict the counterpart's behaviors, both at a citizen and leadership level. Why TikTok is not seen as the ultimate embodiment of these incentives and immediately banned from the US is beyond me.

boomboomsubban 5y ago
>Just ask yourself: who has what incentives? The company for more money? Similar to the incentives behind Google and Facebook.
- anonymouse008 5y ago
  [Edit] For those curious: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqmZsUbYIfA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqmZsUbYIfA
  - dymk 5y ago
    What's does that saying even mean?

cosarara 5y ago

What kind of data? TikTok knows what content I interact to... on tiktok. That's it. Unless they have an android 0-day or something. It has no access to my mic, camera, browsing history, contacts list, or anything useful. Guess who has access to all that, if they want it, though? Google and Facebook (through whatsapp). What is the privacy concern here, exactly?

taterbase 5y ago
If you've logged in it can potentially match your login information or email address to other activity on the web. TikTok's servers could also place you geographically somewhat roughly based on ip address. Outside of that I agree. It's unclear what data TikTok is supposedly gathering that other apps aren't already and why that's a cause for alarm.
- toqy 5y ago
  Phase 1: Collect data about what users like to watch on TikTok Phase 2: ??? Phase 3: The world is now controlled by China and we are doing full communism
  - Cd00d 5y ago
    You're being downvoted, but got a chuckle out of me.
  - bobkazamakis 5y ago
    but you don't understand! This is taking away from AMERICAN profits from surveillance capitalism! Think of the jobs at stake!
altdataseller 5y ago
When you sign up for an account, they also can find the friends in your Contact that also have a TikTok account. But you can bypass this of course. Other than that, I'm also a bit confused as to what data they have access to
financetechbro 5y ago

sydthrowaway 5y ago

The conversation here on HN is quite funny. I can imagine the same conversation taking place in China: the data on US apps goes straight to the US government.

gmm1990 5y ago
Yeah at one point (probably still) didn't all data just go to the NSA.
- ashwagary 5y ago
  NSA takes pride in knowing what every European leader said and did on their personal cellphone this morning.
- duxup 5y ago
  >didn't all data just go to the NSA. "all" is so general that I think it's kinda hard to really address that.
  - williamscales 5y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A
    - duxup 5y ago
      I'm aware of that. This is what I meant by how hard it is to talk about 'all'. Someone says all and then someone gives an example that's not all and so what are we talking about? Ultimately I think there are differences between country A and country B's methods and etc.
      - williamscales 5y ago
        Yeah, I mean what is “all”? In terms of internet traffic, my understanding is that the NSA would have access to a significant fraction of all of it via this room (and perhaps others). A significant enough fraction that there’s a high likelihood any given internet communication could be intercepted. Maybe not every time but enough stuff routes through the US that eventually it will be seen. So to me I’ve feel comfortable using “all” in a loose (empirical) sense. But I see your point that it’s not as clear.

alangibson 5y ago

I'm not a fan of Sinophobia, but the CCP has made it very clear that home grown tech companies will be in full cooperation with the state. With that in mind, consider how much user data TikTok has and what might be done with it.

Etheryte 5y ago

One thing that I found very interesting when I looked into what TikTok does: it's scary good at aggregating data about you. I live in a foreign country, my phone's network is behind a VPN to a different foreign country and I gave the app no extra permissions, yet somehow I still got recommended content from the country where I was born. Since it's a small country there's no way that's a coincidence. I'm both intrigued and spooked as to how they figured that connection out.

gs17 5y ago
Does your native country use a different language and you have something set to it on your phone? I had a Korean friend get freaked out by similar, but we figured out that he had something fingerprintable set to use Korean even though his interface was set to English.
- Etheryte 5y ago
  My home country does have its own language, yes, but all of my devices (and their virtual keyboards) are in English.
toqy 5y ago
I'd probably be more worried about a flaw in your own setup vs TikTok uniquely being able to circumvent it
- Etheryte 5y ago
  I'm all ears if you have any suggestions, so far I haven't seen a plausible explanation though.
  - GordonS 5y ago
    Could be as simple as one time you forgot to use the VPN.
    - Etheryte 5y ago

legrande 5y ago

I refuse to download TikTok because I think we've reached peak social media and don't need another app that siphons off data and turns it into gold ingots. Besides, TikTok videos leak out into other platforms and you can tell by the little logo in the video that it was ripped from TikTok. It's just Vine 2.0[1]. Many Vine videos got ripped and re-posted to YouTube so we have a small piece of internet culture surviving the death of an app and preserved. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vine_(service) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vine_(service)

AbbeFaria 5y ago

I’m shocked, shocked that TikTok is invasively gathering user data.

waffleiron 5y ago

OP changed the title, it nowhere says "any other app".

capableweb 5y ago
Reading the title at cnbc right now says "TikTok shares your data more than any other social media app — and it’s unclear where it goes, study says" for me. I guess it was edited to get shorter and within the 80 character limit that HN has for submission titles.
- waffleiron 5y ago
  "TikTok shares your data more than any other social media app" fits easily in the 80 character limit. No need to change "any other social media app" to "any other app" for that reason. This feels like it's actively trying to mislead people.
  - capableweb 5y ago
    Unless they wanna keep the "and it’s unclear where it goes" part of course, which seems like they wanted to. I'm not saying you're wrong, just that there can be multiple reasons, and it's not that obvious of why. In any other way, social media applications surely are the ones that extract the most data, and TikTok being on top of that list makes it to the top of the list of total applications too.

partiallypro 5y ago

I don't understand what useful information could be harvested, as unlike Google/Facebook there is no massive tracking pixel product that follows you across the web. I'm a massive critic of the CCP, but I don't see what useful information they would get from this. I think a bigger "conspiracy theory" I'd buy into would be the algrorithm exploiting political extremes and pushing insane voices to the top...but every social media/media company does that in some way (though not always intentionally.)

classified 5y ago
Behavioral data. If you know how to analyze it, it will give you the ability to predict and manipulate.
- adlorger 5y ago
  1. Having Data 2. Using it to Predict 3. Using it to Manipulate There are major, major leaps from collection to then even having effective prediction models. Prediction is hard, especially when it comes to longer term behaviors. Manipulation is extremely hard especially when the content space is so crowded. My fear of TikTok is far more mundane. It just dulls us into the most passive form of entertainment the world has ever known making us a basically disengaged, lifeless people. Its the modal opposite in life to 'touching grass'.
  - asdff 5y ago
    >My fear of TikTok is far more mundane. It just dulls us into the most passive form of entertainment the world has ever known making us a basically disengaged, lifeless people. Its the modal opposite in life to 'touching grass'. Nail on the head. When I was first sent a link to a tik tok post, it was jarring, because as soon as that video ended another random video popped up and started playing full volume. It's a constant never ending stream of content. As long as you are looking at the app, there is not one moment where your attention isn't captured. You have no time for independent thoughts. How do you even think in long form topics when you interject your attention span with these videos constantly? I think there will be a time when there is a mountain of research showing how harmful this 'fast food content' type of platform can be for mental health, and we really do consider platforms like ticktok or other attention demanding patterns like autoplaying instagram stories or a constant stream of youtube videos like we consider smoking tobacco today. People really need to be meditating and thinking freely, but it seems the technologists have decided monetizing (or at least convincing investors you are monetizing) all available time for independent thought is too profitable.

champagnois 5y ago

Society would rejoice if most of the social media entities were banned or blocked.

McHankHenry 5y ago

The title and article smells of China-bad-clickbait. There's no uncertainty here. Like in every other case, it goes to any company that is willing to purchase it. Overwhelmingly it will be American companies using it for direct marketing.

Tryk 5y ago
How can you say there's no uncertainty here. Do you work at TikTok or do you have information beyond the article to ground your claim?

uhtred 5y ago

This is why I only install a few absolutely necessary apps, and mostly from fdroid. It makes me anxious to see friends install 3 different electric scooter apps in the space of 10 minutes just to try and unlock a scooter. I doubt those apps ever get removed once no longer needed.

dragonelite 5y ago
Why or you can just accept the fact that your phone is your personal bug device your willingly carry around. The only safe space is your brain/thoughts and even that space is something they want to monitor with computer-brain interfaces.

reilly3000 5y ago

I think there is a case for a mandatory warning label, like on the app store and 5 sec interstitial that says: “ Warning: this application sends your behavior to a foreign party. It may be stored indefinitely and used for personal retribution, social scoring, and manipulation of your political views. Proceed with caution”. If that seems extreme, an outright ban of the app is worse. The US and others have had a good history of getting results this way, but it still respects individual and corporate liberties. Thoughts?

Ekaros 5y ago
I think this should be included if there is non-zero risk that any foreign party other than maker of the app can read the data. That is if there is theoretical risk of it leaking or the encryption being used being broken by any party.
pessimizer 5y ago
Why should domestic parties get a bye here?

lancesells 5y ago

> For TikTok, the results were even more mysterious: 13 of the 14 network contacts on the popular social media app were from third parties. The third-party tracking still happened even when users didn’t opt into allowing tracking in each app’s settings, according to the study. It seems like Apple is lacking on tracking enforcement of privacy. This mobile marketing company can do this so I'm guessing Apple has the resources to do this properly. You could even do it for the largest 1000 apps.

qqtt 5y ago
Beyond removing the unique identifier that allows advertisers to track you across applications (IDFA), Apple really hasn't done much to enforce tracking via other means. Depending on who you talk to, they tacitly endorse any and all non-IDFA tracking even when users opt out. https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/09/23/iphone-tracking/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/09/23/iphone-...

throwaway874653 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

josephd79 5y ago

China has taken over our youth.

balls187 5y ago
A buddy of mine lamented something similar recently. He was talking about the free apps his children use on their tablets, and while he likes diversity, was astonished at how much of the apps were pushing chinese culture. Both my boys (neither are ethnic Chinese) speak mandarin. None have come home from school espousing any ideals that differ from our family values, but it will be interesting to see as they grow. Final off-topic comment, the world of Firefly is one where Chinese culture became the dominant culture (though for obvious reasons the show is in English)

Graffur 5y ago

Even if it didn't share data.. it's designed from the beginning to be addictive. While other platforms like Facebook and Instagram grew into being platforms with aims to be addictive, I believe they started in a more neutral place. This type of app should be treated like smoking imo. Queue the "you can find educational material on tiktok!" posts by the subset of HN who really love the app and the company.

asdff 5y ago
It's too jarring to me with the constant playing of the next thing. It's just content content content with no free time in between for you to be alone with your own thoughts. You could spend three hours on the app and have no time for a single independent thought of your own at all. At least three hours in front of cable TV would mean you'd do some introspection when you got up to pee during the commercials.
- Graffur 5y ago
  Yeah, and I have done exactly that. I am vocal about not liking the app but it can still suck me in. I have spent hours lying in bed just scrolling..
randomsearch 5y ago
Yes, as Cal Newport would point out - it’s not that social apps aren’t in some way useful, it’s whether the value they deliver is worth the price they exact by “stealing” large amounts of your time.

deleted 5y ago

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discardedrefuse 5y ago

It ridiculous how TikTok keeps getting a pass from practically everyone. Are memories so short lived? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21725139 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21725139 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23634138 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23634138 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23684950 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23684950 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26477064 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26477064

xinniethepooh 5y ago

I occasionally check TikTok to see what it's like. I notice quite a bit of very "pro-China" type propaganda; idyllic Chinese farmers teaching their kids, muscular Chinese male athletes, etc. Very much a tool to influence Western users and thought.

coliveira 5y ago

I believe that Facebook and Google collect more of my data than any other company in the world. And I know very well that they share all that data with US intelligence, because that's what they are required to do. That said, I don't see any problem in using another countries' app that might be doing the same thing that bigger violators like FB and Google are already doing. And, notice, I live in the US. For people oversees I can guarantee that this sentiment is even more common.

babypuncher 5y ago
Who they are sharing it with shouldn't even matter. The act of covertly collecting it and giving users no real recourse is the problem, and what we should regulate. Turn the social networks into dumb feeds driven by explicit user choices rather than algorithms. Solve that problem, and you solve the TikTok problem. But people don't want to talk about that. They want to ban the platforms they perceive as being used to push an opposing political agenda while preserving the platforms they themselves abuse for the same purpose. It is almost funny seeing people who directly benefited from Cambridge Analytica/Facebook turn around and complain about TikTok.

kyleblarson 5y ago

It goes to China.

llacb47 5y ago

Without a list of the third-party domains the tiktok app contacted, this study is useless and unproven

jmnicolas 5y ago

When you're from Europe, it's funny (in a cringe way) to see the Americans cry because the Chinese spy more than them!

oyebenny 5y ago

No shit.

TheMightyLlama 5y ago

I think one of the things we don’t appreciate (perhaps most of the people on HN do) is that many of these platforms are not, as billed, social networks. They are, in fact, data collecting applications with a user facing, attention acquisition mechanism in the form of a fun little app. They are addictive for a reason. To get data off you.

kornhole 5y ago

Articles such as these frame the debate around comparing different corporate and government influenced social media and never mention free social media as an alternative. https://fediverse.party/ https://fediverse.party/

nicce 5y ago
Very few services are actually totally free or with neutral purpose. On larger scale, it is really hard.
- kornhole 5y ago
  Yes they cost me electricity, bandwidth, and time to administer. They are free of advertising, data tracking, and influence of corporations or governments. My friends who use the ones I host can donate money, but I have never asked them.

kornhole 5y ago

Why does this and many similar articles frame the debate around comparing different corporate and government influenced social media platforms without mentioning free community run social media as an alternative? https://fediverse.party/ https://fediverse.party/

lucic71 5y ago

fuzzyset 5y ago

These types of articles always frustrate me because the authors never seem to question where and how these apps are getting your data. These APIs and privileges are granted by iOS and Android. If only we had real privacy legislation in the US that could limit what is exposed to apps rather than being at the mercy of Google and Apple to put limits in place. It's not like TikTok is hacking into your phone ...

magwa101 5y ago

stuckkeys 5y ago

Really? Unclear to where it goes? Really? Alright I know it is a bait article but the author is a god damn idiot.

zthething 5y ago

Kinda makes Google look like a saint.

brailsafe 5y ago

Says the website with 13 social trackers, among 40 total trackers that Firefox Focus blocks by default.

togs 5y ago

Nobody knows where any of their data goes and few people care. Tiktok is currently better at Algorithms than other SM, go figure. Some people hate Tiktok because they’ve never used it and incorrectly think it’s all dancing 14 year olds; others simply hate China because despite having a market economy its government has a little more power than in the West, which allows China to sometimes act outside the myopic lens of market logic when necessary (blasphemy) while reaping the market’s gains.