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We’re fine without Facebook, German and French ministers say
- jonathanstrange 5y agoAs much as people would like to see that, Facebook-Meta will not withdraw from the EU anyway. It's an empty threat. The EU has never been particularly impressed with such bluffing in the past.
- detaro 5y agoIt's not even a threat really. Everyone is quoting an SEC filing by Facebook where it lays that out as a worst-case scenario - which is what companies do so they don't get sued by stockholders trying to get them to pay up because they "hid information" from them if there is any further trouble with EU access (which there likely will be). Facebook just has officially told everybody the obvious fact of "we have issues with EU regulations, this could get bad", as they are supposed to do as a public company.
- jjulius 5y agoIn the same vein, I'd say that this is Germany and France doing the same thing. "Oh, you think this could get bad? lol don't care."
- Grollicus 5y agoI think the interesting thing is that Facebook seems to finally begin to take SchremsII seriously. It is a sword of Damocles hanging over all US companies doing business in the EU and it is something that needs to be solved by the US side, as European courts have shot all attempts by the EU down. I hope this is a beginning for the US to finally tackle their due process deficiency.
- julianlam 5y agoIt makes me smile that the EU, which so many Brexiteers wrote off as a bloated bureaucracy, is currently going toe to toe with Facebook all while avoiding regulatory capture.
- davedx 5y agoI mean it can be both right? "The EU" is actually a collection of various treaties and organizations, some of which function better than others, and it's certainly not small by any measure. As a citizen I am in general still supportive of the EU, in fights like this for sure, but some of the criticisms that came out of Brexit were fair.
- pawelmurias 5y agoIt's a fully corrupt bloated bureaucracy, very few people love to click on stupid cookie popups. In a lot of countries the scumbags the people who elect the EU asshats don't even follow what the people they elected vote on.
- arlcode 5y agoWell it's their own doing. Facebook doesn't give European politicians and regulators any arguments that speak for them: - (Basically) No jobs in Europe - (Basically) No taxes in Europe - Easily replaceable (aka no major economic consequences when they disappear) - Considered as dividing the population and fueling conflict for profit - In a position to block meaningful local competition - Facebook flipped them off in the past when they could get away with it - Facebook delivers the data of EU citizens directly to foreign secret services. Even if you don't care about privacy, this removes a potential bargaining chip for future transatlantic contracts.
- alfonsodev 5y agoI'm curious how this will unfold, something similar happened with Google News in Spain[1], and Deliveroo [2], of course we are talking about the whole EU and neither of examples had as many customers as Facebook. - [1] https://support.google.com/news/publisher-center/answer/9609687?hl=en https://support.google.com/news/publisher-center/answer/9609... - [2] https://deliveroo.es/en/ https://deliveroo.es/en/
- Apreche 5y ago"Don't threaten us with a good time." -Europe
- sylware 5y ago
- mnw21cam 5y agoMeta Platforms Inc.’s veiled threat to quit Europe because of blocked talks over privacy rules was more like music to the ears of two top German and French politicians. “After being hacked I’ve lived without Facebook and Twitter for four years and life has been fantastic,” German Economy Minister Robert Habeck told reporters at an event alongside French Finance Minister Bruno Le Maire in Paris on Monday. “I can confirm that life is very good without Facebook and that we would live very well without Facebook,” Le Maire added. “Digital giants must understand that the European continent will resist and affirm its sovereignty.” The pair were responding to comments in Meta’s annual report published Thursday, warning that if it couldn’t rely on new or existing agreements to shift data, then it would “likely be unable to offer a number of our most significant products and services, including Facebook and Instagram, in Europe.” Meta Renews Warning to EU It Will Be Forced to Pull Facebook The European Union “is such a big internal market with so much economic power that if we act in unity we won’t be intimidated by something like this,” Habeck said. Meanwhile Le Maire listed ways in which European governments have challenged tech giants, including with privacy rules, taxation and blocking the development of digital currencies.
- sylware 5y agothanks for the copy
- DavideNL 5y agoOriginal url: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-07/we-re-fine-without-facebook-german-and-french-ministers-say https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-07/we-re-fin...
- automatic6131 5y agoI think it's clear given Meta's share price on a whiff of decreaing DAUs that Meta needs the EU more than the EU needs Meta's attention sinks.
- buggythebug 5y agoit's still facebook - stop calling it meta
- nicce 5y agoQuite opposite - call it Meta that their name change does not help their brand.
- kangalioo 5y agoSwitch back end forth between Meta and Facebook to enforce the connection
- tentacleuno 5y agoGenuine question: does Facebook own Meta, or does Meta own Facebook? Or is it Meta Platforms[0]? Will Facebook (the product) as everyone knows it continue to be marketed as Facebook (under the leadership of Meta), or is facebook.com going to be re-branded as Meta? I looked the other day and it still comes up as Facebook... and Meta. What the hell? Addendum: why does meta.com redirect to [1]? [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meta_Platforms https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meta_Platforms [1]: https://about.facebook.com/meta https://about.facebook.com/meta
- _hcuq 5y agoI survive just fine without Facebook too.
- temp8964 5y agoI don't use Facebook either, but I don't want politicians to tell me whether I need Facebook.
- detaro 5y agodupe: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30254131 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30254131
- simonbarker87 5y agoI imagine there will be a fair amount of internal noise from small D2C businesses in the country - Facebook is (at least was 3 years ago when I was in this world) unreasonably effective at delivering target demographic potential customers to company websites.
- flerchin 5y agoI suppose European Facebook addicts have to use their vpn for Facebook, and Netflix. Instead of just Netflix.
- tut-urut-utut 5y agoOnce there is no Facebook in Europe and everyone else is gone from the platform, there would be no network effect to push anyone to go out of their way to access a US version and deal with VPN.
- flerchin 5y agoQuite true. The network that would be left would be quite narrow. I wonder if a Euro replacement will arise, or if truly nothing of value will be missed.
- evancoop 5y agoThere are four ways a business can grow: 1) Add more users 2) Sell more to each user 3) Retain a higher proportion of users 4) Reclaim churned users (a corollary of #1) It seems like Meta, Oculus and such notwithstanding, had essentially focused exclusively on #1. Then they ran out of humans on earth. Folks rarely "churn" in the conventional sense (unless their government bans use!), so #3 became irrelevant. So now what?
- alex_young 5y agoIt’s a bit strange to think about business success as purely a function of users isn’t it? Especially when those users are product themselves. Facebook, and all other advertisers, sell the attention of their users to third parties called customers. If this customer base is growing, and the amount of user attention is growing, it seems like there is plenty of greenfield to prospect to me.
- evancoop 5y agoThat's the argument in Sarnoff's law: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Sarnoff https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Sarnoff
- irrational 5y agoDon’t grow? Stay the same, maintain the status quo, be happy with what you achieved, get over the need for more more more, etc. The shareholders will get over their disappointment.
- Kalium 5y agoThat's a great plan, provided you can consistently hit profit targets. Meta's had trouble with that one lately.
- irrational 5y agoWell, there will be a period of adjustment as they find their equilibrium.
- jmnicolas 5y agoI bet they wouldn't say the same thing about Twitter. All the politicians that I'm aware of, exist only by their Twitter feed! Conversely, a lot of journalists nowadays are just Twitter copy-pasters.
- jjulius 5y agoFrom the article we are discussing: >“After being hacked I’ve lived without Facebook and Twitter for four years and life has been fantastic,” German Economy Minister Robert Habeck told reporters at an event alongside French Finance Minister Bruno Le Maire in Paris on Monday.
- chrisseaton 5y ago> After being hacked Doesn't sound like the kind of technically competent person we should be taking advice from.
- caf 5y agoHabeck literally did say it about Twitter in the same sentence.
- vanviegen 5y agoI think many politician would rather be rid of Twitter, but as their competitors are all there, they can't not be.
- Lio 5y agoMy guess would be that if Facebook and Twitter pulled out of the EU market instead of complying privacy rules then some other organisation would step up to fill that void. It wouldn't even have to be an EU company just one that followed the rules willingly. I'd better that even worse than the loss of business neither Twitter or Facebook/Meta would like to see a competitor have access to a protected market of the size of the EU.
- samuelfekete 5y agoI think it’s fairly obvious that Meta needs Europe more than Europe needs Meta.
- hutzlibu 5y agoWho decides that? I am european and I do not need or use Meta, but I believe there are many small buisness for example, who invested in a social media presence and get their clients through instagram etc. Or just ordinary people, who have their social life organized with it. To be honest: a european wide poll of whether europeans decide to allow or ban meta (with its current practice) would probably not give the desired result.
- scriptproof 5y agoThey do not threaten to ban Meta. Just the opposite. Meta threats to quit Europa (That is just words actually). Meta could work without moving data to the USA.
- hutzlibu 5y ago"Meta could work without moving data to the USA" They say they cannot - so current legislation is threat of a ban. And the imaginary poll would probably give very different results, depending on the wording: "Should a exception for meta be made?" vs. "Should meta be banned fron operating in europe, for not following regulations" People do not like exceptions for big companies, but they also do not like extra work and they usually do not like regulations from the EU, either
- chrisseaton 5y agoI interact with several communities that are mainly composed of older people. Facebook is all they know how to use and all they have to interact in this way. What could they replace it with? I'm not sure what to suggest to them.
- nicoburns 5y ago
- kadomony 5y ago“Don’t threaten me with a good time.”
- Bostonian 5y agoIt should be up to German and French citizens to decide if they are fine without Facebook.
- lornemalvo 5y agoWelcome to representative democracy.
- RandomLensman 5y agoI think it would be stretch to say the last election in Germany that got Habeck his post was fought on anything close to this topic.
- the_mitsuhiko 5y agoI'm pretty sure the majority of German and French citizens would see the demise of Facebook positively.
- toyg 5y agoI wouldn't be so sure. FB has become a massive platform for political organising by regular folks, and because its population skews older, any backlash will be painfully felt at the political level. I am sure the establishment will be more than happy to get rid of it, but further down the social pyramid? There will be lamentations.
- hk__2 5y ago> I'm pretty sure the majority of German and French citizens would see the demise of Facebook positively. Of course not; in France Facebook has 40M MAU for a population of 67M (50M if you take only people from 15 to 75 years old). Tons of small shops and restaurants rely on it for their own "website". It’s massively used by people of 40-50 y/o who often don’t use any other online social network. Politics use it as well to announce stuff to their supports.
- the_mitsuhiko 5y ago
- progx 5y agoHello Meta, did you know, telegram, threema, signal and many more were invented too?
- qwertox 5y agoThose are more of a competition to WhatsApp, which has been left out in this "threat".
- Proven 5y ago
- satysin 5y agoWe all know that Meta has zero intention of pulling Facebook and Instagram from the EU market. That is 400m+ people, Mark can get away with a lot but that is a move even he couldn't pull off. Not really sure what Meta's angle is with this 'threat'.
- tpoacher 5y agoI'd love to see this statement biting them in the behind with mass migrations to better alternatives, like it happened with whatsapp recently. Not because I hate Facebook or anything, but because it would be "a good thing (TM)" in the first place!
- julianlam 5y agoSpeaking of whatsapp, I'd like to see statistics to see whether many of those who migrated away migrated back over time.
- tpoacher 5y agonot an easy thing to measure. partly because the word "migrated" isn't the most suitable here. "expanded" might be a better one. e.g. many of my friends "migrated" to telegram and/or signal around that time, but are also still technically on whatsapp since they never actually closed their whatsapp accounts. I am one of those people, since I'm not about to teach my elderly parents something new. But do I text any of my "migrated" friends on whatsapp? No, I text them on signal/telegram.
- Al-Khwarizmi 5y agoIt's a pity that it's an obvious empty threat. No more Instagram? Sounds like a great improvement. Although unfortunately, people would just move to some other similar network to post their fake perfect lives or get depressed about the others'.
- iqanq 5y agoHave they asked citizens? Everybody I know who uses Facebook/Instagram like it.
- tut-urut-utut 5y ago> Everybody I know who uses Facebook/Instagram like it. On the other hand, everyone I know who doesn't use Facebook/Instagram hate it.
- iqanq 5y agoI hate ginger ale. I hope they make it illegal!
- Hamuko 5y agoDo they like Facebook/Instagram specifically, or do they like having a social network where their friends are? Because the former disappearing doesn't mean that there won't be the latter.
- nikanj 5y agoI can't believe we're giving this hoax any airtime. Does anyone really believe FB would leave a market as big as the EU?
- aequitas 5y agoIf we all just keep this story alive, maybe enough people are convinced to seek for alternatives. Then we don't have to wait for Facebook to pull the plug, it will just drain by itself.
- sneak 5y agoI saw this earlier and I wondered if they realized that WhatsApp is included in the faustian deal with Facebook/Meta brinkmanship. Instagram DM and WhatsApp have quickly become the de-facto default digital communication method for young people in many countries. I understand that without WhatsApp, in some European countries, it can be hard to even get a doctor's appointment or coordinate with one's university. The extent to which these centralized systems have infiltrated our business processes and societies cannot be understated.
- tut-urut-utut 5y agoThe day WhatsApp get forbidden, people will switch to one of the alternatives in a matter of days. Let's be honest, it's not like WhatsApp is so popular because it's so good compared to the competition, they are all functionally very similar, it's the network effect that keeps it on top.
- toyg 5y agoWhatsapp is indeed ubiquitous, but it is known that it's just another messenger platform - switching to alternatives wouldn't be particularly painful. In fact, switching back to one that is easier to eavesdrop on, would probably be considered a boon by the ruling classes.
- niemandhier 5y agoAt least in germany using WhatsApp for anything semi officially is essentially prohibited already due to privacy laws. There is a lot of 'grey' infrastructure ( WhatsApp groups coordinating parent teacher stuff) but this is getting replaced already.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- julianlam 5y agoYou're overestimating the importance of a digital messaging medium. If WhatsApp went away overnight, you bet your ass an alternative will be popularised the next day, if not sooner.
- eyear 5y agoI never used Facebook.
- hk__2 5y agoThis is becoming ridiculous: Meta never threated this; the info comes from a SEC filling where this is presented as the worst-case scenario if they have too much trouble with EU data access laws.
- nixass 5y agoSo, Meta did say this after all you say? Even tho not read as a threat from SEC fillings, why would they even say that if they don't think about it?
- hk__2 5y ago> Even tho not read as a threat from SEC fillings, why would they even say that if they don't think about it? Because they want to protect themselves from investors suing them in case things go bad in Europe. They’re saying to their investors "I’ll do my best with your money, but if things go really bad you need to know that this could maybe happen".
- kubb 5y agoyou mean best case scenario
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- intrasight 5y agoCan someone weigh in on why FB is making such a stink about this? Why not just manage European data in Europe data centers?
- matthewdgreen 5y agoFacebook recently lost 10% of their market cap because Apple put up some simple anti-tracking features. It’s very obvious that Facebook’s business is very sensitive to minor privacy improvements and restrictions on what Facebook can do with data. Presumably Facebook knows a lot more about how much its revenue depends on what it does with user data server-side than anyone else does, and is therefore in a good position to predict how much upcoming regulatory actions could affect its business.
- hk__2 5y ago> Can someone weigh in on why FB is making such a stink about this? There’s no such stink. In a SEC filling, Meta said that if they had too much trouble with EU data laws, the worst-case scenario would be that they would leave Europe. That’s all. That’s "if these things go to far, we might have to maybe do this if really we can't do anything else". Some medias changed this into "Meta is threatening to leave Europe", and here we are.
- bluetomcat 5y agoI'm not a fond user of Facebook for its social networking capabilities, but where I live in Eastern Europe, pretty much any local small business now relies on a Facebook page for its discovery and presence. Whether it's gyms, wedding agencies, child amusement, car TLC repair shops, etc. My primary use of Facebook is to discover those local businesses.
- hk__2 5y agoSame here in France. You hardly can’t look at a restaurant’s menu without being prompted for a Facebook login.
- JKCalhoun 5y agoYou bring up a very good reason why restaurants (etc.) should be fleeing FB — it might not be the basket you want all your eggs in. Then again, something else will come along. As long as the public and business are flexible. We saw the printed newspaper, "Yellow Pages" replaced.
- gambiting 5y agoYes, and if Facebook were to disappear, all of those places and all of those services would advertise elsewhere - if there is no competing platform currently, one would appear. That's the whole point. Just because it's convenient doesn't mean the entire economy in your country should rely on the good will of an American corporation.
- ryandrake 5y agoExactly. None of Facebook's products are irreplaceable. If Facebook, WhatsApp, Instagram, Oculus disappeared, even disappeared overnight, there would be a brief period of confusion where everyone scrambled to find alternatives, they would find these alternatives, and then... life would just go on. We might all be better off, particularly if everyone switched over to more open-web, accessible technologies. If the early studies are right, we might even see a general improvement in public happiness and mental health without Facebook and Instagram.
- I_am_tiberius 5y agoLet's see what Europeans say when they are pushed out of American markets.
- tut-urut-utut 5y agoEuropean companies are already pushed / punished when they don't follow USA rules while doing business in the USA. Just take Volkswagen, Deutsche Bank and Bayer / Monsanto as examples of multi-billion fines. There were many companies that abandoned USA marked completely because it was not worth to them to do business there any more.
- IgorPartola 5y agoYeah! Murica #1 bro! :-/
- I_am_tiberius 5y agoI'm European though:)
- denton-scratch 5y agoEU producers are already "pushed out" by US trade barriers, on things like cheese and aeroplanes. Does it matter? No. Most USAians have never eaten proper cheese, and they're not interested in buying EU planes - they make their own.
- brainwipe 5y agoIt's a bad move by Meta; unless they were attempting to shed some share price by going up against a bloc that is reknowned for pushing back.
- Arun2009 5y agoI used to stay away from Facebook, but of late I have discovered many communities near me through that medium. Unlike reddit where the culture is to keep yourself anonymous, it's refreshing to deal with people's real identities in life. I realize the price that we have to pay for this convenience, but as of now I'd rather not think about it. I am not proud of my laziness and cowardice.
- nonrandomstring 5y agoIt makes sense that European governments would love to see Facebook (and other US giants) exit. Splitting up big-tech is not a good answer to dominance or monopoly, as it adds more heads to the hydra. The answer is pour funding into EU startups, future alternatives that will usurp US giants. But that cannot happen while Google etc are present, as it will be seen as wasted investment. Catch-22. Solution: goad Zuckerberg et al into narcissistic grandstanding, and hope they get cornered by their own words enough to follow though. Google and Facebook already did this dance with Australia, and came off the worse. As a European I would personally be delighted to see the demise of Facebook, Microsoft and other US behemoths over here, as it would surely be a boost to our tech economy.
- eru 5y agoI'd rather not see European governments pour tax payer money down the drain. Perhaps use the funds to lower taxes and improve the regulatory environment to at least stop hindering the growth of the economy instead?
- chrisseaton 5y ago> The answer is [for European governments to] pour funding into EU startups Why's that the answer? It wasn't how the US did it.
- nonrandomstring 5y ago@chris, I think DARPA and InQTel show a different way this works. If anything I applaud the US way of doing things - a pattern we totally failed to mirror in Britain after the 1960s Wilson govt, letting greats like ICL and Ferranti die early and not re-investing in smaller firms until the 80s, when we repeated the same mess all over again, totally squandering Acorn and such. Anyway, however you disguise it it's called "stimulus". I think the will and vision now exists in Europe for 50 year horizons (but not in the UK under our present prize cockwomble Johnson govt who can't see past investing in booze for the next Westminster piss-up).
- oytis 5y agoPouring government money is rarely a good way to make a commercially successful company. Research or creating industries requiring large upfront investments (e.g. silicon) could benefit from it, but EU has not been terribly efficient with it either (Ahem, Galileo, ahem)
- dbg31415 5y agoI stopped in like 2011. My elderly parents are still hooked on it. Mom is full on anti-vax because of the echo chambers Facebook creates. I’m sure she wouldn’t be as extreme if she didn’t have a daily dose of this shit delivered to her steam. It’s ruining my parents. Who grew up if a different era and still think there’s someone like Walter Cronkite is personally screening every “news” article. “They wouldn’t be allowed to print it if it wasn’t real…” Oof. We can all do without Facebook.
- neonate 5y agohttps://archive.is/sPVCu https://archive.is/sPVCu
- toyg 5y agoI have no doubt whatsoever than the political establishment of any country would be extremely happy if all this social media rigamarole would just go away. Like it or not, with all its problems, Facebook has become _the_ de-facto political-organising platform for the masses. Its virality and communication channels help grassroot causes immensely, annoying political professionals who are used to control the conversation with traditional methods. Whether or not FB (or any other social platform) is a net negative on the world, helping fake-news stuff and empowering nazis, it is an actual fact that large chunks of the political discourse in open societies now lives there. Because the platform is relatively open, it often tips the balance of power away from established interests and into the hands of the otherwise-disenfranchised. Does Zuck need to clean up his act? Sure. Is privacy-oriented EU legislation right, to clamp-down on the current wild-west? Totally. But beware of people using these excuses to provoke denial-of-service attacks on services that help more direct democracy, because they are using our good intentions to pave a shiny new road to a hell they can thoroughly control.
- GuB-42 5y agoI am not. I have an Oculus Rift, thankfully bought I had to tie my Oculus account to my Facebook account, but it is still Facebook. If Facebook is gone, my hardware which I bought in Europe stops working. My device is well out of warranty but what about people who just bought a Quest? Will Facebook recall all their headsets? I am pretty sure you can't break hardware like that in Europe, where a 2 year warranty is the law.
- bArray 5y agoFor anybody else who got a dead page, this finally motivated me to switch from Cloudflare DNS to Quad9 [1]. I also find these days that 1.1.1.1 throttles my requests a lot (causing even more requests). [1] https://www.quad9.net/service/service-addresses-and-features/ https://www.quad9.net/service/service-addresses-and-features...
- rtpg 5y agoI don't believe too much in the pulling out of Europe spiel, but honestly Facebook and Instagram are both, to this day, the only platform out there where I can keep up with my extended family and get decent updates about their life. I know a lot of people are fine walking away from that but I would be seriously saddened to lose access to a lot of people.
- stjohnswarts 5y agoThe world would definitely get along just fine without them