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They're working on usernames, but what's the privacy concern around using your phone number? Is it to be pseudononymous? My use case for Signal is friends and

by tapoxi 5y ago

They're working on usernames, but what's the privacy concern around using your phone number? Is it to be pseudononymous? My use case for Signal is friends and family, and it was easy to get everyone onboard because we all have each other's phone numbers already and didn't need to build a new list of contacts. It's a drop-in Android-compatible replacement for iMessage.

sgarman 5y ago
Personally I don't have a privacy issue with it per se but I have two phones, one is data only sim and I can't use signal on that device with their current model. I guess because the device is a "phone" whatever that means. If they do away with this reliance on phone numbers hopefully we could get something more flexible that allows me to use it on "phones" without phone numbers.
- tenuousemphasis 5y ago
  Did you try this? It should let you use Signal on two phones https://signal.org/blog/ios-device-transfer/ https://signal.org/blog/ios-device-transfer/
  - crtasm 5y ago
    If you activate signal on another phone it deactivates the old one.
  - sgarman 5y ago
    Looks like someone already responded to you but yea this doesn't really work if you use two phones as mentioned.
rhn_mk1 5y ago
> the privacy concern around using your phone number You have to give up your anonymity to get one in many places.
- Trias11 5y ago
  Just because "every platform and app is doing that" doesn't mean secure communication solution should.
- sneak 5y ago
  You can get one from a place that doesn't do that, and use that as your Signal number for now.
Trias11 5y ago
If I'd be a spying agency I'd do just that - develop "secure" app that would collect unique identity of every user. Verified phone number is a perfect unique ID. "Just give your phone number to us, and don't worry, we won't share it with anyone!". That exactly what Signal does. Until they allow user-created ID's with no link to any identity - the above concern stays.
- tapoxi 5y ago
  But a phone number isn't supposed to be secret, it's supposed to be given to people to contact them. I don't see the nefarious use here. Can they determine I'm a Signal user? Sure, but they can get that from IP address, App/Play Store installs, etc.
  - ttybird2 5y ago
    Phone numbers are associated with one's real-life identity though.
    - sneak 5y ago
      Sometimes, but you can always get one that isn't for use with Signal. That's what I do.
      - ttybird2 5y ago
        In many countries the government and the company that you register the number with need to know who you are (or can deduce it from the place where you are connecting).
        sneak 5y ago
        Yes, but people in those countries can buy a US VoIP number from a US vendor for $2 and use that as their Signal number. You don't need to use a GSM number, and you don't need to use the country code in which you live. The fact is, mostly anonymous phone numbers are available on the internet for use with Signal, and Signal (correctly) does not discriminate on country code or "type" of number. Any number that can receive phone calls or texts will do. There are indeed countries that want to tie phone numbers to strong identity, but you can simply get a second number from a country that's not so hellbent on restricting access. The number you're logged in to in Signal on a phone does not need to be the same number of the SIM card inside that phone. You can use any number you wish.
e12e 5y ago
> what's the privacy concern around using your phone number? My phone number identifies my country, my address and my real name - even if I restrict the listing, it's tied to my credit card. It's tied to a sim card with separate geolocation data to the GPS tracking Google does; even if I active signal from eg a pine phone, the number is tied to a 4g base station. Ed: and its tied to my current place of employment, too. None of this is needed/wanted for my signal identity (for me or signal). I could go out of my way to acquire a pseudonymous phone number, but I guess I'd have to be able to use it somehow - which seems pretty hard to keep anonymous. At the very least I'd probably have to pay for it. Signal should be able to do better than PGP and five mix master hops of 90s-era anonymous email... Or you get the old problem of those needing actual secure communication using terrorist@phreak.suspicious.net.ru and using signal just for "other" stuff.. Ed: note that this mostly about connecting with people on signal that otherwise might not have my number, than about (almost) random people that have my phone number discovering that I'm on signal.

by tapoxi 5y ago

sgarman 5y ago

Personally I don't have a privacy issue with it per se but I have two phones, one is data only sim and I can't use signal on that device with their current model. I guess because the device is a "phone" whatever that means. If they do away with this reliance on phone numbers hopefully we could get something more flexible that allows me to use it on "phones" without phone numbers.

tenuousemphasis 5y ago
Did you try this? It should let you use Signal on two phones https://signal.org/blog/ios-device-transfer/ https://signal.org/blog/ios-device-transfer/
- crtasm 5y ago
  If you activate signal on another phone it deactivates the old one.
- sgarman 5y ago
  Looks like someone already responded to you but yea this doesn't really work if you use two phones as mentioned.

rhn_mk1 5y ago

> the privacy concern around using your phone number You have to give up your anonymity to get one in many places.

Trias11 5y ago
Just because "every platform and app is doing that" doesn't mean secure communication solution should.
sneak 5y ago
You can get one from a place that doesn't do that, and use that as your Signal number for now.

Trias11 5y ago

If I'd be a spying agency I'd do just that - develop "secure" app that would collect unique identity of every user. Verified phone number is a perfect unique ID. "Just give your phone number to us, and don't worry, we won't share it with anyone!". That exactly what Signal does. Until they allow user-created ID's with no link to any identity - the above concern stays.

tapoxi 5y ago
But a phone number isn't supposed to be secret, it's supposed to be given to people to contact them. I don't see the nefarious use here. Can they determine I'm a Signal user? Sure, but they can get that from IP address, App/Play Store installs, etc.
- ttybird2 5y ago
  Phone numbers are associated with one's real-life identity though.
  - sneak 5y ago
    Sometimes, but you can always get one that isn't for use with Signal. That's what I do.
    - ttybird2 5y ago
      In many countries the government and the company that you register the number with need to know who you are (or can deduce it from the place where you are connecting).
      - sneak 5y ago
        Yes, but people in those countries can buy a US VoIP number from a US vendor for $2 and use that as their Signal number. You don't need to use a GSM number, and you don't need to use the country code in which you live. The fact is, mostly anonymous phone numbers are available on the internet for use with Signal, and Signal (correctly) does not discriminate on country code or "type" of number. Any number that can receive phone calls or texts will do. There are indeed countries that want to tie phone numbers to strong identity, but you can simply get a second number from a country that's not so hellbent on restricting access. The number you're logged in to in Signal on a phone does not need to be the same number of the SIM card inside that phone. You can use any number you wish.

e12e 5y ago

> what's the privacy concern around using your phone number? My phone number identifies my country, my address and my real name - even if I restrict the listing, it's tied to my credit card. It's tied to a sim card with separate geolocation data to the GPS tracking Google does; even if I active signal from eg a pine phone, the number is tied to a 4g base station. Ed: and its tied to my current place of employment, too. None of this is needed/wanted for my signal identity (for me or signal). I could go out of my way to acquire a pseudonymous phone number, but I guess I'd have to be able to use it somehow - which seems pretty hard to keep anonymous. At the very least I'd probably have to pay for it. Signal should be able to do better than PGP and five mix master hops of 90s-era anonymous email... Or you get the old problem of those needing actual secure communication using terrorist@phreak.suspicious.net.ru and using signal just for "other" stuff.. Ed: note that this mostly about connecting with people on signal that otherwise might not have my number, than about (almost) random people that have my phone number discovering that I'm on signal.