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This doesn't match my experience. I guess it depends on the role but for engineers it's well known Amazon has been throwing large sign on bonuses to close the v

This doesn't match my experience. I guess it depends on the role but for engineers it's well known Amazon has been throwing large sign on bonuses to close the vesting gap for years. For instance I received an offer that was 160 base, 325 cash bonus and 5% of my RSUs for my first year, putting my TC at ~510k. Second year was a slightly smaller bonus, and 15% of my RSUs. Is it possible that when folks were voluntarily disclosing comp they were just including base comp and not total comp?

avgDev 5y ago
If you don't mind me asking what is your experience level?
jakey_bakey 5y ago
If you're gunning for a job why would you want to represent your comp as lower?
loeg 5y ago
I’ve had a similar experience, albeit with lower TC numbers. The RSUs were backloaded, but there were big cash grants for years 1 and 2 that flattened it out somewhat. Another thing to keep in mind is that Amazon values their stock grants as if it grows 15% every year. Obviously this is pretty optimistic and makes their offers not directly comparable to other companies that value their stock using current prices.
- KKKKkkkk1 5y ago
  Another thing to keep in mind is that Amazon values their stock grants as if it grows 15% every year. Obviously this is pretty optimistic and makes their offers not directly comparable to other companies that value their stock using current prices. They're easily comparable because current prices incorporate all publicly available information (and even some non-public). If you accept the 15% assumption, you're letting them hoodwink you.
  - loeg 5y ago
    This isn't responsive to my comment. I said "not directly comparable," which is true, because the dollar figures stated for TC have different stock growth models. I agree that current prices are the best available estimate of future performance (i.e., flat growth model) and the optimistic stock valuation Amazon uses is misleading and deliberately so.
- bagels 5y ago
  When does the 15% come in to play? If your recruiter tells you $xxx in stock, they actually discount that and you get a grant for 15% less shares than current market price?
  - loeg 5y ago
    The signing bonus is some N shares of stock. The $xxx figures in their comp packages are inflated in years 2, 3, and 4 by optimistically valuing those shares.
    - bagels 5y ago
      So, if the recruiter says $500k in RSU, and the stock stays flat for 4 years, the grant is actually only for $425k (or less with compounding)? Or, are you saying, they justify small grants by telling you the stock will grow?
      - fhrow4484 5y ago
        Let's say you're applying for a position where usual FAANG TC is 300k. Then Amazon recruiter wants to "match" that, so 300 * 4=1200k over 4 years. Base pay is maxed at 160 (until today's announcement), so 1200k-(160 * 4) = 560k to come up with with stocks and cash bonus. Let's say Amazon 30 day moving average share price during negotiation is $1200 a share So now recruiter must make math such that: - TC stays relatively flat. On year 3 & 4 you get 40% of award, but only 5% year 1 and 15% year. (so a cash bonus to offset year 1 is ~35% of grant amount, and cash bonus offset year 2 is ~25% of grant amount) - TC assuming 15% growth of stock So, they'll offer you 220 units: Year 1: with only 5% * 220 * 1200=$13k from RSU, you need (300-160-13)=127k cash bonus , now your TC year 1 is 300k. Year 2: 15% * 220 * 1200 * 1.15=46k from RSU So cash bonus of 94k. Year 3: 40% * 220 * 1200 * 1.15^2=140k RSU that's 300k of TC Year 4: 40% * 220 * 1200 * 1.15^3=160k RSU That's even more, 320k TC \o/ So all the math here is done using fictional share price that grew 1.15^n for each year. But in concrete, your offer says 220 units. If Amazon grew much more than 15% a year, on year 3 you're still making 40% * 220 units, no matter what the share price is. But the final offer is: 160k / year base, 220 units over 4 year with 5%/15%/40%/40% vesting, and 127k cash bonus year 1 + 94k cash bonus year 2. Amazon is one of rare FAANG where the RSU offer is given in share count in offer itself, not in $.
munificent 5y ago
> I received an offer that was 160 base, 325 cash bonus and 5% of my RSUs for my first year, putting my TC at ~510k. I don't understand the appeal of cash signing bonuses. This just seems to me like another way of saying you got hired for a $485k annual salary while giving Amazon the freedom to cut your salary a year from now by up to ~67%. Why give your future self that risk instead of looking for a higher base salary that is stickier over the long term?
- sam0x17 5y ago
  Sounds like a really good way for a manager with a hiring-based OKR to get short term good hiring numbers. Maybe the manager is also planning on leaving or maybe someone else is on the line for retention and this strategically benefits the hiring manager :D
- bagels 5y ago
  Cash gives you the freedom to diversify. If you really wanted to be all in on Amazon, you could use the cash to buy shares. You get RSUs in the latter years to make up for the lack of cash bonus, which you can hold or sell. I don't see what downside there is?
  - munificent 5y ago
    I think you're comparing a cash bonus to a stock bonus, but my comparison was versus a base salary. Given the choice between base salary $X and cash signing bonus $Y or base salary $(X + Y), it seems like the latter is strictly better.
- vineyardmike 5y ago
  The bonuses are not traditional bonuses in the sense that they're not guaranteed and based on company performance. The employment contract is "x per year and an extra y year one" not "x per year and y year one under the right conditions". It gives them the freedom to not increase your salary or give you more stock, but you should still have a guaranteed known rate for 4 years.
- potatolicious 5y ago
nebula8804 5y ago
>For instance I received an offer that was 160 base, 325 cash bonus and 5% of my RSUs for my first year, putting my TC at ~510k. Second year was a slightly smaller bonus, and 15% of my RSUs. Jeebus man. What is it that you FAANG developers do that is so much more complex than what regular developers do? For reference: I do Angular and Python development. Is there like some open source project or code samples that give an idea of the complexity of code that 510k developers are writing? Man you got me day dreaming about that kind of money: I would invest half of it in low risk mutual funds and then take the other half over to my friend Asadulah who works in securities.
- JaimeThompson 5y ago
  If you look at it as FANNG's employing people to keep them from working for others it makes a bit more sense.
  - spywaregorilla 5y ago
    That makes no sense
- ndstephens 5y ago
  "I would invest half of it in low risk mutual funds and then take the other half over to my friend Asadulah who works in securities." reference didn't go unnoticed. nice one.
  - nebula8804 5y ago
    If I put a smile on at least one person's face, I consider that a big win! :D
- hardolaf 5y ago
  > What is it that you FAANG developers do that is so much more complex than what regular developers do? They quit when the numbers don't match what they feel they are worth. You see the same thing in finance. One bad year can send 20-30% of your workforce walking out the door in a matter of a few months post bonuses.
giantg2 5y ago
My God. How long do you have to stay for the sign-on to payout? I'd do that job for a year just for the sign-on bonus. $325k is like 2. Decades of saving up.
- yanslookup 5y ago
  It's prorated, a portion is paid out every pay check starting from day 1. It's just like normal base cash compensation but they call it a sign on bonus to hack around the low max base comp.
  - giantg2 5y ago
    Nice

avgDev 5y ago

If you don't mind me asking what is your experience level?

jakey_bakey 5y ago

If you're gunning for a job why would you want to represent your comp as lower?

loeg 5y ago

I’ve had a similar experience, albeit with lower TC numbers. The RSUs were backloaded, but there were big cash grants for years 1 and 2 that flattened it out somewhat. Another thing to keep in mind is that Amazon values their stock grants as if it grows 15% every year. Obviously this is pretty optimistic and makes their offers not directly comparable to other companies that value their stock using current prices.

KKKKkkkk1 5y ago
Another thing to keep in mind is that Amazon values their stock grants as if it grows 15% every year. Obviously this is pretty optimistic and makes their offers not directly comparable to other companies that value their stock using current prices. They're easily comparable because current prices incorporate all publicly available information (and even some non-public). If you accept the 15% assumption, you're letting them hoodwink you.
- loeg 5y ago
  This isn't responsive to my comment. I said "not directly comparable," which is true, because the dollar figures stated for TC have different stock growth models. I agree that current prices are the best available estimate of future performance (i.e., flat growth model) and the optimistic stock valuation Amazon uses is misleading and deliberately so.
bagels 5y ago
When does the 15% come in to play? If your recruiter tells you $xxx in stock, they actually discount that and you get a grant for 15% less shares than current market price?
- loeg 5y ago
  The signing bonus is some N shares of stock. The $xxx figures in their comp packages are inflated in years 2, 3, and 4 by optimistically valuing those shares.
  - bagels 5y ago
    So, if the recruiter says $500k in RSU, and the stock stays flat for 4 years, the grant is actually only for $425k (or less with compounding)? Or, are you saying, they justify small grants by telling you the stock will grow?
    - fhrow4484 5y ago
      Let's say you're applying for a position where usual FAANG TC is 300k. Then Amazon recruiter wants to "match" that, so 300 * 4=1200k over 4 years. Base pay is maxed at 160 (until today's announcement), so 1200k-(160 * 4) = 560k to come up with with stocks and cash bonus. Let's say Amazon 30 day moving average share price during negotiation is $1200 a share So now recruiter must make math such that: - TC stays relatively flat. On year 3 & 4 you get 40% of award, but only 5% year 1 and 15% year. (so a cash bonus to offset year 1 is ~35% of grant amount, and cash bonus offset year 2 is ~25% of grant amount) - TC assuming 15% growth of stock So, they'll offer you 220 units: Year 1: with only 5% * 220 * 1200=$13k from RSU, you need (300-160-13)=127k cash bonus , now your TC year 1 is 300k. Year 2: 15% * 220 * 1200 * 1.15=46k from RSU So cash bonus of 94k. Year 3: 40% * 220 * 1200 * 1.15^2=140k RSU that's 300k of TC Year 4: 40% * 220 * 1200 * 1.15^3=160k RSU That's even more, 320k TC \o/ So all the math here is done using fictional share price that grew 1.15^n for each year. But in concrete, your offer says 220 units. If Amazon grew much more than 15% a year, on year 3 you're still making 40% * 220 units, no matter what the share price is. But the final offer is: 160k / year base, 220 units over 4 year with 5%/15%/40%/40% vesting, and 127k cash bonus year 1 + 94k cash bonus year 2. Amazon is one of rare FAANG where the RSU offer is given in share count in offer itself, not in $.

munificent 5y ago

> I received an offer that was 160 base, 325 cash bonus and 5% of my RSUs for my first year, putting my TC at ~510k. I don't understand the appeal of cash signing bonuses. This just seems to me like another way of saying you got hired for a $485k annual salary while giving Amazon the freedom to cut your salary a year from now by up to ~67%. Why give your future self that risk instead of looking for a higher base salary that is stickier over the long term?

sam0x17 5y ago
Sounds like a really good way for a manager with a hiring-based OKR to get short term good hiring numbers. Maybe the manager is also planning on leaving or maybe someone else is on the line for retention and this strategically benefits the hiring manager :D
bagels 5y ago
Cash gives you the freedom to diversify. If you really wanted to be all in on Amazon, you could use the cash to buy shares. You get RSUs in the latter years to make up for the lack of cash bonus, which you can hold or sell. I don't see what downside there is?
- munificent 5y ago
  I think you're comparing a cash bonus to a stock bonus, but my comparison was versus a base salary. Given the choice between base salary $X and cash signing bonus $Y or base salary $(X + Y), it seems like the latter is strictly better.
vineyardmike 5y ago
The bonuses are not traditional bonuses in the sense that they're not guaranteed and based on company performance. The employment contract is "x per year and an extra y year one" not "x per year and y year one under the right conditions". It gives them the freedom to not increase your salary or give you more stock, but you should still have a guaranteed known rate for 4 years.
potatolicious 5y ago

nebula8804 5y ago

>For instance I received an offer that was 160 base, 325 cash bonus and 5% of my RSUs for my first year, putting my TC at ~510k. Second year was a slightly smaller bonus, and 15% of my RSUs. Jeebus man. What is it that you FAANG developers do that is so much more complex than what regular developers do? For reference: I do Angular and Python development. Is there like some open source project or code samples that give an idea of the complexity of code that 510k developers are writing? Man you got me day dreaming about that kind of money: I would invest half of it in low risk mutual funds and then take the other half over to my friend Asadulah who works in securities.

JaimeThompson 5y ago
If you look at it as FANNG's employing people to keep them from working for others it makes a bit more sense.
- spywaregorilla 5y ago
  That makes no sense
ndstephens 5y ago
"I would invest half of it in low risk mutual funds and then take the other half over to my friend Asadulah who works in securities." reference didn't go unnoticed. nice one.
- nebula8804 5y ago
  If I put a smile on at least one person's face, I consider that a big win! :D
hardolaf 5y ago
> What is it that you FAANG developers do that is so much more complex than what regular developers do? They quit when the numbers don't match what they feel they are worth. You see the same thing in finance. One bad year can send 20-30% of your workforce walking out the door in a matter of a few months post bonuses.

giantg2 5y ago

My God. How long do you have to stay for the sign-on to payout? I'd do that job for a year just for the sign-on bonus. $325k is like 2. Decades of saving up.

yanslookup 5y ago
It's prorated, a portion is paid out every pay check starting from day 1. It's just like normal base cash compensation but they call it a sign on bonus to hack around the low max base comp.
- giantg2 5y ago
  Nice