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We had an office near an Amazon office. I interviewed a lot of people trying to leave Amazon. I don’t ask candidate’s compensation, but a lot of them volunteere

We had an office near an Amazon office. I interviewed a lot of people trying to leave Amazon. I don’t ask candidate’s compensation, but a lot of them volunteered it anyway. I was always surprised at how effectively low their comp was in the first few years due to the vesting schedule. The internet is adamant that everyone with FAANG jobs is rolling in TC, but there are a lot of people out there who are getting into FAANG companies (especially Amazon) at lower compensations with the hopes of moving up to those higher levels. OTOH, the backloaded vesting system works. It was easy to hire people out of their first year at Amazon, but almost impossible to hire someone after a few years when the bulk of their vesting was right around the corner. I talked to a lot of people who admitted being miserable but felt they couldn’t leave until they got the equity that they had been toiling over for the past few years. Weird situation all around. We eventually reduced our recruiting out of that particular Amazon office because so many of the people coming out of it were deeply disgruntled with the tech industry in general. Really changed my view of Amazon.

giantg2 5y ago
"but there are a lot of people out there who are getting into FAANG companies (especially Amazon) at lower compensations with the hopes of moving up to those higher levels." And there are a lot of us who don't even get into FAANG and can't even dream of $160k, let alone $360k.
aerovistae 5y ago
What is TC?
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- infamouscow 5y ago
  TC stands for total compensation - base salary, bonus, and equity.
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yanslookup 5y ago
This doesn't match my experience. I guess it depends on the role but for engineers it's well known Amazon has been throwing large sign on bonuses to close the vesting gap for years. For instance I received an offer that was 160 base, 325 cash bonus and 5% of my RSUs for my first year, putting my TC at ~510k. Second year was a slightly smaller bonus, and 15% of my RSUs. Is it possible that when folks were voluntarily disclosing comp they were just including base comp and not total comp?
- avgDev 5y ago
  If you don't mind me asking what is your experience level?
- jakey_bakey 5y ago
  If you're gunning for a job why would you want to represent your comp as lower?
- loeg 5y ago
  I’ve had a similar experience, albeit with lower TC numbers. The RSUs were backloaded, but there were big cash grants for years 1 and 2 that flattened it out somewhat. Another thing to keep in mind is that Amazon values their stock grants as if it grows 15% every year. Obviously this is pretty optimistic and makes their offers not directly comparable to other companies that value their stock using current prices.
  - KKKKkkkk1 5y ago
    Another thing to keep in mind is that Amazon values their stock grants as if it grows 15% every year. Obviously this is pretty optimistic and makes their offers not directly comparable to other companies that value their stock using current prices. They're easily comparable because current prices incorporate all publicly available information (and even some non-public). If you accept the 15% assumption, you're letting them hoodwink you.
    - loeg 5y ago
sidewndr46 5y ago
Have you considered there is a selection bias here? The people with low TC are the ones who want to leave.
anonporridge 5y ago
Pretty much textbook abusive relationship. Get people feeling that they can't leave because of sunk cost and it's all going to be worth it soon, even though they're actively miserable.
- spywaregorilla 5y ago
  That's the opposite of a sunk cost. That's a pending reward.
- karmakurtisaani 5y ago
  I was thinking sunk cost as well, but I don't know if it applies here. Can you call it sunk cost if the thinking is "if I get through this day, it's one less day to the pay off" as opposed to "I've already put so much effort to this, I can't leave now!"?
- bagels 5y ago
  It's actually better for leaving because the cash is paid monthly in the first couple years, and you don't have to wait for the next quarter or half or whatnot if you decide you want to leave.
dymk 5y ago
When the average tenure is 1.8 years, it certainly is working. That's nearly 50% of their tenure resulting in less than 20% of their equity vesting. The way Amazon does vesting is a scam for any engineer willing to work there, IMO. Big shiny number that they can dangle in front of engineers, and everybody thinks "Oh, sure I can do 4 years for that..."
- banana-19 5y ago
  For SDEs median is closer to 2.2. But that just talks about those that are still there though. It doesn't show when those that are not quit.
- AitchEmArsey 5y ago
  "Their equity" is the wrong way of thinking about it - the RSU schedule is fully visible up front, and in the first 2 years low RSU grants are offset by a sign-on bonus. In my case, I was told what my target TC per year was, and that is what I've received (at minimum), just made up of a varying mix of bonus and RSUs. Saying that un-vested RSUs are "mine" is like laying claim to next year's salary before having done any of the work to earn it.
  - bin_bash 5y ago
    I'm pretty sure every other big tech company offers sign on bonuses with an evenly distributed vesting schedule.
    - ldjkfkdsjnv 5y ago
      - bin_bash 5y ago
        what a poor comment. What would've been nice if you could've explained what I'm missing. For the record I work at a different big tech company and was given a massive sign-on bonus. I also have received an offer from Amazon in the past. I know how to read levels.fyi so I'm not sure what it is that I'm missing exactly.
dv_dt 5y ago
What happens to those incentives if the fed increasing rates bumps the stockmarket back to flat or down for some time I wonder.
deleted 5y ago
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dehrmann 5y ago
Someone since deleted this comment: > While the stock vests in year 3 and 4, you get an equivalent amount of cash in year 1 and 2. It’s not uncommon for that cash to be 6 figures, almost doubling your salary for the first two years. I wouldn’t call that a pittance. This was my experience ~8 years ago. There was an initial signing bonus, a retention bonus after a year, and then the RSUs start kicking in. The bonuses were prorated monthly. It was a little different than what other companies do, but it didn't feel unfair.
AlwaysRock 5y ago
I think an important point here is that Amazon is viewed as an easier interview to pass than other FAANG+ companies. Being able to go from 50K-100K as an entry level non faang engineer to 150K-200K+ is a massive jump for many people and a very big name on their resume. Its a lot of folks first faang job.
hardolaf 5y ago
FAANG was a coping mechanism for Amazon employees. It was always just FANG.
- mrep 5y ago
  The original single A was for amazon: "FANG was an acronym coined by Jim Cramer, the television host of CNBC's Mad Money, in 2013 to refer to Facebook, Amazon, Netflix, and Google. Cramer called these companies "totally dominant in their markets" [0]. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Tech#FANG,_FAANG,_and_MAMAA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Tech#FANG,_FAANG,_and_MAMA...
trunnell 5y ago
When I've recruited people somewhere within their multi-year vesting schedule, I've found that they absolutely hate the "golden handcuffs." It leads them to resent their employer and ultimately motivates them to leave. Delayed vesting is a terrible practice. Perhaps we'll see more companies offer immediate vesting of equity comp as a way to compete for talent. This is what Netflix does.
kamaal 5y ago
>>lot of people out there who are getting into FAANG companies (especially Amazon) at lower compensations with the hopes of moving up to those higher levels. A lot of FAANG down level you while hiring, that way they ensure you are basically at the same level even after a promotion(the next 4 - 5) years. Mandatory firing quotas, brutal performance standards(stack ranking included) and delayed vesting schedules effectively mean most won't make it to the big paydays. OTOH, those who are there for a few years, have survived through years of political darwinism inside the company have to an extent figured out the 'secret sauce', and are gradually climbing their way up. In these set ups, attrition is a feature for the long term employees, people who leave basically free up spaces in the ladder for others to take. No matter where you go you write software, so it doesn't really make much difference where you work at. On the other hand positions in the hierarchy no matter what the company are effectively pay grades and one must actively work on grabbing promotions. If you observe carefully job hoppers don't really make much in life. Quitting saps energy due to context switching, by the time you arrive at a good pay day you have already hopped to the next company. For the people who quit often, good days are always in the future. And real cheddar lies in grabbing assets and looking after your health as you age. Both demand relative stability to raise debt and spend time working on your body. That being the case the real winners are people who are doing long terms at companies, investing time learning political, investment and fitness skills.

giantg2 5y ago

"but there are a lot of people out there who are getting into FAANG companies (especially Amazon) at lower compensations with the hopes of moving up to those higher levels." And there are a lot of us who don't even get into FAANG and can't even dream of $160k, let alone $360k.

aerovistae 5y ago

What is TC?

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
infamouscow 5y ago
TC stands for total compensation - base salary, bonus, and equity.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

yanslookup 5y ago

This doesn't match my experience. I guess it depends on the role but for engineers it's well known Amazon has been throwing large sign on bonuses to close the vesting gap for years. For instance I received an offer that was 160 base, 325 cash bonus and 5% of my RSUs for my first year, putting my TC at ~510k. Second year was a slightly smaller bonus, and 15% of my RSUs. Is it possible that when folks were voluntarily disclosing comp they were just including base comp and not total comp?

avgDev 5y ago
If you don't mind me asking what is your experience level?
jakey_bakey 5y ago
If you're gunning for a job why would you want to represent your comp as lower?
loeg 5y ago
I’ve had a similar experience, albeit with lower TC numbers. The RSUs were backloaded, but there were big cash grants for years 1 and 2 that flattened it out somewhat. Another thing to keep in mind is that Amazon values their stock grants as if it grows 15% every year. Obviously this is pretty optimistic and makes their offers not directly comparable to other companies that value their stock using current prices.
- KKKKkkkk1 5y ago
  Another thing to keep in mind is that Amazon values their stock grants as if it grows 15% every year. Obviously this is pretty optimistic and makes their offers not directly comparable to other companies that value their stock using current prices. They're easily comparable because current prices incorporate all publicly available information (and even some non-public). If you accept the 15% assumption, you're letting them hoodwink you.
  - loeg 5y ago

sidewndr46 5y ago

Have you considered there is a selection bias here? The people with low TC are the ones who want to leave.

anonporridge 5y ago

Pretty much textbook abusive relationship. Get people feeling that they can't leave because of sunk cost and it's all going to be worth it soon, even though they're actively miserable.

spywaregorilla 5y ago
That's the opposite of a sunk cost. That's a pending reward.
karmakurtisaani 5y ago
I was thinking sunk cost as well, but I don't know if it applies here. Can you call it sunk cost if the thinking is "if I get through this day, it's one less day to the pay off" as opposed to "I've already put so much effort to this, I can't leave now!"?
bagels 5y ago
It's actually better for leaving because the cash is paid monthly in the first couple years, and you don't have to wait for the next quarter or half or whatnot if you decide you want to leave.

dymk 5y ago

When the average tenure is 1.8 years, it certainly is working. That's nearly 50% of their tenure resulting in less than 20% of their equity vesting. The way Amazon does vesting is a scam for any engineer willing to work there, IMO. Big shiny number that they can dangle in front of engineers, and everybody thinks "Oh, sure I can do 4 years for that..."

banana-19 5y ago
For SDEs median is closer to 2.2. But that just talks about those that are still there though. It doesn't show when those that are not quit.
AitchEmArsey 5y ago
"Their equity" is the wrong way of thinking about it - the RSU schedule is fully visible up front, and in the first 2 years low RSU grants are offset by a sign-on bonus. In my case, I was told what my target TC per year was, and that is what I've received (at minimum), just made up of a varying mix of bonus and RSUs. Saying that un-vested RSUs are "mine" is like laying claim to next year's salary before having done any of the work to earn it.
- bin_bash 5y ago
  I'm pretty sure every other big tech company offers sign on bonuses with an evenly distributed vesting schedule.
  - ldjkfkdsjnv 5y ago
    - bin_bash 5y ago
      what a poor comment. What would've been nice if you could've explained what I'm missing. For the record I work at a different big tech company and was given a massive sign-on bonus. I also have received an offer from Amazon in the past. I know how to read levels.fyi so I'm not sure what it is that I'm missing exactly.

dv_dt 5y ago

What happens to those incentives if the fed increasing rates bumps the stockmarket back to flat or down for some time I wonder.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

dehrmann 5y ago

Someone since deleted this comment: > While the stock vests in year 3 and 4, you get an equivalent amount of cash in year 1 and 2. It’s not uncommon for that cash to be 6 figures, almost doubling your salary for the first two years. I wouldn’t call that a pittance. This was my experience ~8 years ago. There was an initial signing bonus, a retention bonus after a year, and then the RSUs start kicking in. The bonuses were prorated monthly. It was a little different than what other companies do, but it didn't feel unfair.

AlwaysRock 5y ago

I think an important point here is that Amazon is viewed as an easier interview to pass than other FAANG+ companies. Being able to go from 50K-100K as an entry level non faang engineer to 150K-200K+ is a massive jump for many people and a very big name on their resume. Its a lot of folks first faang job.

hardolaf 5y ago

FAANG was a coping mechanism for Amazon employees. It was always just FANG.

mrep 5y ago
The original single A was for amazon: "FANG was an acronym coined by Jim Cramer, the television host of CNBC's Mad Money, in 2013 to refer to Facebook, Amazon, Netflix, and Google. Cramer called these companies "totally dominant in their markets" [0]. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Tech#FANG,_FAANG,_and_MAMAA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Tech#FANG,_FAANG,_and_MAMA...

trunnell 5y ago

When I've recruited people somewhere within their multi-year vesting schedule, I've found that they absolutely hate the "golden handcuffs." It leads them to resent their employer and ultimately motivates them to leave. Delayed vesting is a terrible practice. Perhaps we'll see more companies offer immediate vesting of equity comp as a way to compete for talent. This is what Netflix does.

kamaal 5y ago

>>lot of people out there who are getting into FAANG companies (especially Amazon) at lower compensations with the hopes of moving up to those higher levels. A lot of FAANG down level you while hiring, that way they ensure you are basically at the same level even after a promotion(the next 4 - 5) years. Mandatory firing quotas, brutal performance standards(stack ranking included) and delayed vesting schedules effectively mean most won't make it to the big paydays. OTOH, those who are there for a few years, have survived through years of political darwinism inside the company have to an extent figured out the 'secret sauce', and are gradually climbing their way up. In these set ups, attrition is a feature for the long term employees, people who leave basically free up spaces in the ladder for others to take. No matter where you go you write software, so it doesn't really make much difference where you work at. On the other hand positions in the hierarchy no matter what the company are effectively pay grades and one must actively work on grabbing promotions. If you observe carefully job hoppers don't really make much in life. Quitting saps energy due to context switching, by the time you arrive at a good pay day you have already hopped to the next company. For the people who quit often, good days are always in the future. And real cheddar lies in grabbing assets and looking after your health as you age. Both demand relative stability to raise debt and spend time working on your body. That being the case the real winners are people who are doing long terms at companies, investing time learning political, investment and fitness skills.