4 ms·

I know we've had anecdotal conversations here about declining technical literacy with the increase of tablet / smartphone use, but this figure is striking http

I know we've had anecdotal conversations here about declining technical literacy with the increase of tablet / smartphone use, but this figure is striking https://academic.oup.com/view-large/figure/326747189/nfab061f2.tif https://academic.oup.com/view-large/figure/326747189/nfab061... Computer use has actually declined since ~ 2013?! Wow. That's actually kind of sad.

vlovich123 5y ago
Probably smartphones aren’t included and hence the decrease. 2013 is roughly when the smartphone revolution hits the general populace.
- netizen-936824 5y ago
  Which doesn't even make sense. Some smartphones have the same specs as laptops and you can do, essentially, everything you could on a laptop or desktop on your smartphone. There's more reasons to include the smartphone in the category of computer than not to.
  - vlovich123 5y ago
    Architecturally they’re still very different from traditional desktops/laptops. SoCs are a main distinguishing feature and that pervades a lot of the low-level SW design where you actually basically have a non-transferable OS installation hard coded to the device instead of a traditional HAL letting you easily swap out a processor without much difficulty. For a very long time the control model was flipped as well and your baseband (cellular modem) CPU was actually the primary CPU with the OS running on the more restricted “application processor” (I think most or all designs have corrected this error these days, but certainly this was true in 2013). These differences of course are superficial and your phone could be used as a computer. It’s an arbitrary category like most categorizations that we make. I think the important distinction is that smart devices are largely content consumption devices vs computers being relegated to content creation. For example, would you say that someone who’s used a SmartTV has used a computer just because the specs are largely the same? I think you should fully expect computer use to decline over time because most people consume rather than create content.
  - mcguire 5y ago
    ..except that no one uses a smartphone the way you (used to[1]) use a laptop or smartphone. [1] I find the overlap goes the other way: I'm using a laptop to write this, but I could have done so with my phone. Laptops and desktops are being used like smartphones.
    - netizen-936824 5y ago
      That's even more reason to not have separate categories from my perspective. Either way you're using the devices for the same tasks, there's no reason to separate them.
      - vlovich123 5y ago
        One distinguishing feature is that a computer typically lets you install arbitrary software and you're the "administrator" of the machine. On a smartphone the administrator is the phone manufacturer. As I said, the categorization is completely arbitrary and depends on how you choose to draw the lines, but neither categorization is right/wrong.
        netizen-936824 5y ago
        Maybe when it comes to the baseband processor the user isn't the admin, I definitely would agree there. But on most android devices you can absolutely swap out the user space OS, I think this at least gives more control than the situation you describe, although from my understanding iOS is where the user isn't the admin. Android devices also let you install and run arbitrary software from what I'm aware
        vlovich123 5y ago
        Cool. That’s still not functionality available out of the box (if I recall correctly that’s true for sideloading even on Android). You could try to tease that out but it’ll be low single digit percentage of Android users. In other words, nitpicking pedantry, but nothing that should meaningfully shift the overall numbers. Same reason that you wouldn’t expect to include SmartTVs on this even though they’re all running Android.
rootsudo 5y ago
Yep! And it's getting more and more - technically cell phones are computers, but at the same time so are Tv's and such! So, it's more of the same, computer use is dwindling and so is general computer literacy. e.g. Ask what a file is, or a directory and majority of iphone users have no idea! Permissions too! I find it so exciting, I read about this a while back, e.g. 2015, for user experiences and literacy and back then were reports that the entry curve for computers has been removed via cell phones (iphones, androids, e.g. general smartphones.) that daily computing difficulties do not present themselves as they used too (and they still exist.) from virus, malware, to sorting files, organization, search, and general software competency like excel and such. But ask about social media apps and how they work - and there you go (which, ironically suffer the same issues on purpose, how do you sort information, organize new content or higher fruitful content, etc.) There's also the fun part of addiction and dopamine feedback loops, but I'm getting a bit off the track here. :)
- dpflan 5y ago
  Can you elaborate on your excitement? Your username seems to imply enjoyment of, interest in these complexities while your statement seems to indicate excitement that others are not getting exposed to these complexities. There is benefit to yourself (and the technically literate) because you/they can truly understand and change something versus be stymied (so, "employable").
  - cogman10 5y ago
    Well, the good thing about the current software ecosystem is that end users don't need to understand access control policies in order to safely operate their devices. In otherwords, the barrier to correctly using a general computing device is MUCH lower. As someone that grew up with Win 95, this is a revolution in the way computing works. In the era I entered into computing, to use a computer really did often require at least a little knowledge of DOS or the commandline. Absolutely it required you to know how files and folders worked. Viruses were super common and super easy to catch as we started entering the internet era. So part of correctly operating a computer involved picking and maintaining the right AV software. That's a barrier that has kept people out of computing in general. Now, everyone's grandma is on facebook (for better or worse). Everyone knows how to use a search engine. Even those that don't know how to use a search engine, know how to do "Siri: What is the capital of Kansas?". Knowledge is hyper accessible. (This also exposes new epistemological issues. How can we verify something is true when it requires hours of research, even with the internet?)
api 5y ago
That probably indicates that many computer users prior to 2013 were using computers to get at certain key functions like chat rooms, IM, online videos, games, etc. Now that they don't have to use "computers" to get those things, they don't. If you strip away that residue I would suspect that the number of true computer literate people has increased steadily since the PC revolution.
- Retric 5y ago
  Most people start becoming computer literate to do stuff, after that they can keep digging to understand more. If a tablet/smartphone/XBox just works then why bother with a PC? As such, I think computer literacy has probably dropped over the last 9 years as fewer people get started. Which in general isn’t a bad thing compare the number of people who know how to do even basic car repair in 2022 vs 1960.
  - mostlysimilar 5y ago
    I feel phones are an inferior input device and their broad adoption at the expense of full computers (with keyboard/mouse) is a shame. Phones "just work" but phone screens are too small and touch keyboards too imprecise to do any long-form typing on it. I think the adoption of the phone as the most popular interface for the web has made the quality of software interfaces decline, and has made things like forums less mainstream, both of which are a shame.
- MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
- vannevar 5y ago
  Yes, I'd bet that outside the office, the vast majority of "computer use" between say, 1998 and 2013 was for email and web browsing. That functionality moved to the smart phone, leaving mostly gamers and the computer literate as the remaining users.
leonry 5y ago
This reminds me of a blog article (http://www.coding2learn.org/blog/2013/07/29/kids-cant-use-computers/ http://www.coding2learn.org/blog/2013/07/29/kids-cant-use-co...) that coïncidentally was published in 2013. Or to put it another way, exhibit A of anecdotal evidence.

vlovich123 5y ago

Probably smartphones aren’t included and hence the decrease. 2013 is roughly when the smartphone revolution hits the general populace.

netizen-936824 5y ago
Which doesn't even make sense. Some smartphones have the same specs as laptops and you can do, essentially, everything you could on a laptop or desktop on your smartphone. There's more reasons to include the smartphone in the category of computer than not to.
- vlovich123 5y ago
  Architecturally they’re still very different from traditional desktops/laptops. SoCs are a main distinguishing feature and that pervades a lot of the low-level SW design where you actually basically have a non-transferable OS installation hard coded to the device instead of a traditional HAL letting you easily swap out a processor without much difficulty. For a very long time the control model was flipped as well and your baseband (cellular modem) CPU was actually the primary CPU with the OS running on the more restricted “application processor” (I think most or all designs have corrected this error these days, but certainly this was true in 2013). These differences of course are superficial and your phone could be used as a computer. It’s an arbitrary category like most categorizations that we make. I think the important distinction is that smart devices are largely content consumption devices vs computers being relegated to content creation. For example, would you say that someone who’s used a SmartTV has used a computer just because the specs are largely the same? I think you should fully expect computer use to decline over time because most people consume rather than create content.
- mcguire 5y ago
  ..except that no one uses a smartphone the way you (used to[1]) use a laptop or smartphone. [1] I find the overlap goes the other way: I'm using a laptop to write this, but I could have done so with my phone. Laptops and desktops are being used like smartphones.
  - netizen-936824 5y ago
    That's even more reason to not have separate categories from my perspective. Either way you're using the devices for the same tasks, there's no reason to separate them.
    - vlovich123 5y ago
      One distinguishing feature is that a computer typically lets you install arbitrary software and you're the "administrator" of the machine. On a smartphone the administrator is the phone manufacturer. As I said, the categorization is completely arbitrary and depends on how you choose to draw the lines, but neither categorization is right/wrong.
      - netizen-936824 5y ago
        Maybe when it comes to the baseband processor the user isn't the admin, I definitely would agree there. But on most android devices you can absolutely swap out the user space OS, I think this at least gives more control than the situation you describe, although from my understanding iOS is where the user isn't the admin. Android devices also let you install and run arbitrary software from what I'm aware
        vlovich123 5y ago
        Cool. That’s still not functionality available out of the box (if I recall correctly that’s true for sideloading even on Android). You could try to tease that out but it’ll be low single digit percentage of Android users. In other words, nitpicking pedantry, but nothing that should meaningfully shift the overall numbers. Same reason that you wouldn’t expect to include SmartTVs on this even though they’re all running Android.

rootsudo 5y ago

Yep! And it's getting more and more - technically cell phones are computers, but at the same time so are Tv's and such! So, it's more of the same, computer use is dwindling and so is general computer literacy. e.g. Ask what a file is, or a directory and majority of iphone users have no idea! Permissions too! I find it so exciting, I read about this a while back, e.g. 2015, for user experiences and literacy and back then were reports that the entry curve for computers has been removed via cell phones (iphones, androids, e.g. general smartphones.) that daily computing difficulties do not present themselves as they used too (and they still exist.) from virus, malware, to sorting files, organization, search, and general software competency like excel and such. But ask about social media apps and how they work - and there you go (which, ironically suffer the same issues on purpose, how do you sort information, organize new content or higher fruitful content, etc.) There's also the fun part of addiction and dopamine feedback loops, but I'm getting a bit off the track here. :)

dpflan 5y ago
Can you elaborate on your excitement? Your username seems to imply enjoyment of, interest in these complexities while your statement seems to indicate excitement that others are not getting exposed to these complexities. There is benefit to yourself (and the technically literate) because you/they can truly understand and change something versus be stymied (so, "employable").
- cogman10 5y ago
  Well, the good thing about the current software ecosystem is that end users don't need to understand access control policies in order to safely operate their devices. In otherwords, the barrier to correctly using a general computing device is MUCH lower. As someone that grew up with Win 95, this is a revolution in the way computing works. In the era I entered into computing, to use a computer really did often require at least a little knowledge of DOS or the commandline. Absolutely it required you to know how files and folders worked. Viruses were super common and super easy to catch as we started entering the internet era. So part of correctly operating a computer involved picking and maintaining the right AV software. That's a barrier that has kept people out of computing in general. Now, everyone's grandma is on facebook (for better or worse). Everyone knows how to use a search engine. Even those that don't know how to use a search engine, know how to do "Siri: What is the capital of Kansas?". Knowledge is hyper accessible. (This also exposes new epistemological issues. How can we verify something is true when it requires hours of research, even with the internet?)

api 5y ago

That probably indicates that many computer users prior to 2013 were using computers to get at certain key functions like chat rooms, IM, online videos, games, etc. Now that they don't have to use "computers" to get those things, they don't. If you strip away that residue I would suspect that the number of true computer literate people has increased steadily since the PC revolution.

Retric 5y ago
Most people start becoming computer literate to do stuff, after that they can keep digging to understand more. If a tablet/smartphone/XBox just works then why bother with a PC? As such, I think computer literacy has probably dropped over the last 9 years as fewer people get started. Which in general isn’t a bad thing compare the number of people who know how to do even basic car repair in 2022 vs 1960.
- mostlysimilar 5y ago
  I feel phones are an inferior input device and their broad adoption at the expense of full computers (with keyboard/mouse) is a shame. Phones "just work" but phone screens are too small and touch keyboards too imprecise to do any long-form typing on it. I think the adoption of the phone as the most popular interface for the web has made the quality of software interfaces decline, and has made things like forums less mainstream, both of which are a shame.
MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
vannevar 5y ago
Yes, I'd bet that outside the office, the vast majority of "computer use" between say, 1998 and 2013 was for email and web browsing. That functionality moved to the smart phone, leaving mostly gamers and the computer literate as the remaining users.

leonry 5y ago

This reminds me of a blog article (http://www.coding2learn.org/blog/2013/07/29/kids-cant-use-computers/ http://www.coding2learn.org/blog/2013/07/29/kids-cant-use-co...) that coïncidentally was published in 2013. Or to put it another way, exhibit A of anecdotal evidence.