4 ms·

The article never once tries to define what it thinks would be good "cultural health". You can kinda infer that the current level of vitriol and animosity is ba

The article never once tries to define what it thinks would be good "cultural health". You can kinda infer that the current level of vitriol and animosity is bad, but what kind of society would that look like and how would we get there? I can see three versions. First is a homogenous culture where there is nothing to fight culture wars over. I don't think such a thing is possible, nor desirable, since the author's free speech argument rests on a diversity of thought angle. Another is a culture where people are free to disagree but do so respectfully and are willing to compromise on the larger issues. This sounds good on paper but the truth is a disturbing minority of this country believes Trump won the 2020 election, that COVID is at once a harmless prop for a government powergrab, and also a Chinese bioweapon, that climate change is a lie, that gun ownership is sacred, that abortion is murder, etc. Ignoring your personal stance on these issues, how would one compromise on any of them? I believe climate change is an existential threat, we're already careening past the point of no return, the time for debate ended some time around 2007, and you still want to talk about it on Twitter? Lastly is a culture where you're simply not allowed to disagree, and perhaps this is where the path of least resistance has led us. We use AI to separate like-minded folks into clusters so they can avoid arguing with each other, and as a bonus we can sell a few trillion dollars worth of ads to them. Citizens can head to some culturally-appropriate venues for disagreement (i.e, the Youtube comment section) when we feel like tilting at some windmills.

zozbot234 5y ago
The disturbing minority has always been there, we just didn't used to take those fringe ideas seriously. 'Compromise' with the radical fringe is not inherently required.
- stickfigure 5y ago
  The proper social immune response is mockery, not outrage or negotiation.
  - vore 5y ago
    Is it though? I don't think any of us know the answer, which is why we're in such a predicament.
  - hansel_der 5y ago
    i thought so too. but mockery is easyli misinterpreted and then sounds like more of the same unreasonable.
- imgabe 5y ago
  We still don’t take them seriously. The media just discovered that they make the most advertising money by seeking the most extreme examples of the “other” and holding them up as if it’s their average view. If your audience is liberal, you find someone bombing abortion clinics and tell them “this is what conservatives are”. If your audience is conservative you find the people who make accusations of racism because they heard a word in a foreign language that sounds like a racial slur and you tell your audience “this is what liberals are”. These aren’t representative of the vast majority on either side, but they’re what drives lots of engagement so that’s what gets shown. The more it gets shoved in everyone’s face the more they believe that the “other” are just completely insane psychos who can’t be reasoned with.
jmeister 5y ago
You may be interested in the work of the political philosopher Jerry Gaus: https://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/06/11/the-virtues-of-political-disagreement/ https://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/06/11/the-virtues...
nervlord 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
golemiprague 5y ago
I don't see what is the problem compromising on those issues, it is not all or nothing issues, there is a whole range of possible compromises on most of the issues you have mentioned. For example abortions, you can compromise on the maximum month in which abortion is legal. Climate change, many conservatives will agree to stop subsidising coal power stations because it bode well with the free market views. Covid, you can come to some middle ground on whether to force vaccinations or just encourage it, what type of limitations and many other parameters which were discussed and indeed moved along the scale during the pandemic. Whether the Chinese did it intentionally? it is just an opinion, not really changing anything. Most people are not that extreme and are willing to find some common grounds, and normal people usually have friends and family they like with a whole range of opinions about anything and everything. I don't understand why the bleak outlook, maybe you live in a very non diverse area and see everything as us vs them but that's not the reality for most people.
- wonnage 5y ago
  Look at where we’re at today. We’ve “compromised” on every issue you listed; abortion is illegal in several states, the coal industry is slowly declining, vaccinations are encouraged but not required. Theoretically this is state #2 and everyone is happy… yeah no. You can’t “compromise” on abortion if you think it’s murder. Nor on climate change if your city will disappear under the waves in 30 years. Nor on Covid policy if you think mask policies and vaccination requirements are tools of a police state.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - JohnTHaller 5y ago
    > You can’t “compromise” on abortion if you think it’s murder. You can if you're practical and think of it as working towards a common goal of decreasing abortion. Something everyone is in favor of. And face the fact that outlawing abortion doesn't eliminate abortion. Similar to how outlawing murder doesn't eliminate murder. If you increase comprehensive sex education, decrease stigma around discussing sex, increase access to free and low cost birth control, decrease abstinence only rhetoric, increase child care options, increase free access to health care while pregnant, and increase access to free and low cost health care for delivery, you can drastically reduce the number of abortions. While we're at it, increase funding for adoption, both in placing your child and in adopting, and for foster care. Unfun facts: Childbirth in the US costs between $10,000 to $30,000. Over 30 million Americans have no health insurance. Many have poor health insurance (deductibles of $5,000 are common on the open market... mine last year was $7,000). My last friend who adopted wound up spending nearly $40,000 to complete the process.
raxxorrax 5y ago
> but the truth is a disturbing minority of this country believes Trump I believe this is just you looking for excuses to close yourself to other arguments and perspectives. I think there is quite an easy explanation for the success of Trump and that is that people were fed up with politics. Especially good weather topics like representation that are interesting for well-situated students that believe they don't get enough attention. I don't condemn people that are against Trump, on the contrary. But I do condemn those that cannot explain his success and lack reflection on how that could have happened.
- JohnTHaller 5y ago
  The section you partially quoted is about the tens of millions of Americans who believe Trump won the election. Not who are fans of Trump. And they believe this based entirely on the word of Trump and his sphere and right-wing pundits and politicians. Despite the fact that there is no evidence of any widespread voter fraud. And the meandering arguments used by Trump's 'Kraken' lawyers in court had no factual basis or merit and were tossed across the country. Fun fact: The only person to claim that bounty offered by the Republican Lt Gov of Texas for verifiable voter fraud was a Democrat proving an illegal vote for Trump.

zozbot234 5y ago

The disturbing minority has always been there, we just didn't used to take those fringe ideas seriously. 'Compromise' with the radical fringe is not inherently required.

stickfigure 5y ago
The proper social immune response is mockery, not outrage or negotiation.
- vore 5y ago
  Is it though? I don't think any of us know the answer, which is why we're in such a predicament.
- hansel_der 5y ago
  i thought so too. but mockery is easyli misinterpreted and then sounds like more of the same unreasonable.
imgabe 5y ago
We still don’t take them seriously. The media just discovered that they make the most advertising money by seeking the most extreme examples of the “other” and holding them up as if it’s their average view. If your audience is liberal, you find someone bombing abortion clinics and tell them “this is what conservatives are”. If your audience is conservative you find the people who make accusations of racism because they heard a word in a foreign language that sounds like a racial slur and you tell your audience “this is what liberals are”. These aren’t representative of the vast majority on either side, but they’re what drives lots of engagement so that’s what gets shown. The more it gets shoved in everyone’s face the more they believe that the “other” are just completely insane psychos who can’t be reasoned with.

jmeister 5y ago

You may be interested in the work of the political philosopher Jerry Gaus: https://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/06/11/the-virtues-of-political-disagreement/ https://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/06/11/the-virtues...

nervlord 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

golemiprague 5y ago

I don't see what is the problem compromising on those issues, it is not all or nothing issues, there is a whole range of possible compromises on most of the issues you have mentioned. For example abortions, you can compromise on the maximum month in which abortion is legal. Climate change, many conservatives will agree to stop subsidising coal power stations because it bode well with the free market views. Covid, you can come to some middle ground on whether to force vaccinations or just encourage it, what type of limitations and many other parameters which were discussed and indeed moved along the scale during the pandemic. Whether the Chinese did it intentionally? it is just an opinion, not really changing anything. Most people are not that extreme and are willing to find some common grounds, and normal people usually have friends and family they like with a whole range of opinions about anything and everything. I don't understand why the bleak outlook, maybe you live in a very non diverse area and see everything as us vs them but that's not the reality for most people.

wonnage 5y ago
Look at where we’re at today. We’ve “compromised” on every issue you listed; abortion is illegal in several states, the coal industry is slowly declining, vaccinations are encouraged but not required. Theoretically this is state #2 and everyone is happy… yeah no. You can’t “compromise” on abortion if you think it’s murder. Nor on climate change if your city will disappear under the waves in 30 years. Nor on Covid policy if you think mask policies and vaccination requirements are tools of a police state.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- JohnTHaller 5y ago
  > You can’t “compromise” on abortion if you think it’s murder. You can if you're practical and think of it as working towards a common goal of decreasing abortion. Something everyone is in favor of. And face the fact that outlawing abortion doesn't eliminate abortion. Similar to how outlawing murder doesn't eliminate murder. If you increase comprehensive sex education, decrease stigma around discussing sex, increase access to free and low cost birth control, decrease abstinence only rhetoric, increase child care options, increase free access to health care while pregnant, and increase access to free and low cost health care for delivery, you can drastically reduce the number of abortions. While we're at it, increase funding for adoption, both in placing your child and in adopting, and for foster care. Unfun facts: Childbirth in the US costs between $10,000 to $30,000. Over 30 million Americans have no health insurance. Many have poor health insurance (deductibles of $5,000 are common on the open market... mine last year was $7,000). My last friend who adopted wound up spending nearly $40,000 to complete the process.

raxxorrax 5y ago

> but the truth is a disturbing minority of this country believes Trump I believe this is just you looking for excuses to close yourself to other arguments and perspectives. I think there is quite an easy explanation for the success of Trump and that is that people were fed up with politics. Especially good weather topics like representation that are interesting for well-situated students that believe they don't get enough attention. I don't condemn people that are against Trump, on the contrary. But I do condemn those that cannot explain his success and lack reflection on how that could have happened.

JohnTHaller 5y ago
The section you partially quoted is about the tens of millions of Americans who believe Trump won the election. Not who are fans of Trump. And they believe this based entirely on the word of Trump and his sphere and right-wing pundits and politicians. Despite the fact that there is no evidence of any widespread voter fraud. And the meandering arguments used by Trump's 'Kraken' lawyers in court had no factual basis or merit and were tossed across the country. Fun fact: The only person to claim that bounty offered by the Republican Lt Gov of Texas for verifiable voter fraud was a Democrat proving an illegal vote for Trump.