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I keep seeing Thiel called a libertarian. He may have been at one time but I get the sense he has converted to national conservatism or perhaps even more extrem
by api 5y ago
I keep seeing Thiel called a libertarian. He may have been at one time but I get the sense he has converted to national conservatism or perhaps even more extreme views such as neoreaction. Those are not libertarian views at all.
If that were the case he would not be alone. There has been a mass conversion of libertarians to those sorts of views in the 20-teens. Many others converted to the far left. It feels as if libertarianism is dead.
I don’t really know. I’m just wondering if he still calls himself that.
- wayoutthere 5y agoI’ve stopped using the label “libertarian” and started using “anarchist” to mean the same thing.
- cristoperb 5y ago"Anarchist," which implies a form of libertarian socialism, would be even more confusing if applied to Thiel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism
- doctor_eval 5y agoAs I understand the taxonomy, Libertarians are more closely aligned with anarcho-capitalists, to the point where I tend to consider them equivalent. Anarcho-capitalists believe in the primacy of property rights above all else. It is a system which explicitly requires an enforcement mechanism - such as, ideally, a private police system, with the right to use force against citizens to protect the rights of property holders. Anarchism is in general a utopian (but IMO idealistic, and intrinsically unstable) system where no person has authority over any other. There can be no police force because everyone has effectively the same rights. (There are lots of variations on this general theme). Anarchism has a bad reputation (the reasons for this are in themselves interesting) but by definition it is anti-authoritarian. I personally think that most libertarians I’ve met are actually anarcho-capitalists, and not anarchists. Despite sounding alike, the two systems could hardly be more different.
- xibalba 5y ago> perhaps even more extreme views such as neoreaction Evidence? I have and listened to Thiel extensively and see no signs of neoreaction. In fact, he has been pretty consistent in his claims of pursuing a less violent future.
- anon9384929 5y agoI think to the posters point, his words and actions don’t line up. If he wants a less violent future, he shouldn’t bankroll those advocating for, condoning, or downplaying violence such as zip ties and gallows at the Capitol.
- xibalba 5y agoWhether you realize it or not, your oblique approach is undermining your claims. What is your claim, specifically? Who did Thiel bankroll? For how much? Why? What did they do with respect to Jan 6?
- anon9384929 5y agoI mean, first of all, Trump himself??? Blake Masters? Kris Kobach? My claim is exactly what I stated. These people, including Thiel, support politicians who support, condone, or downplay violence that has already happened. Whether you realize it or not, trying to get intellectual about simple things is undermining the doubt you’re trying to cast.
- exogeny 5y agoThiel is heavily behind his protege, Blake Masters. Representative sample: "Saving Arizona PAC, the Thiel-funded effort that has already spent nearly $1.7 million in Arizona, has launched ads attacking state Attorney General Mark Brnovich, Masters' principal GOP opponent, for rejecting Trump's lie that voter fraud cost him the election. "Mark Brnovich says President Trump is wrong on voter fraud. Really? Brnovich failed to convene a grand jury, certified Biden as president. Now he's nowhere to be found, making excuses … instead of standing with our president," the ad says." [0] If you can't find evidence of Thiel's direct or by association diminishing of January 6th, then you're either not looking in good faith or you don't know how to use a computer. 0: https://www.salon.com/2021/10/15/peter-thiel-bets-on-the-far-right-tech-tycoon-spending-millions-to-bankroll-trump-wing-of/ https://www.salon.com/2021/10/15/peter-thiel-bets-on-the-far...
- noduerme 5y agoA lot of people I know who call themselves libertarians - not all, but the loudest - are what I would describe as opportunistic freedom-warriors when it suits their purposes. Pointing out to them the degree to which their safety and prosperity is being safeguarded by the government they think unnecessary just results in cognitive dissonance for them: They can't accept it emotionally. So they live in a fantasy where they believe they ultimately control every aspect of their own destiny, and where everyone else must be a fool, but their political views are not much more than a series of post-justifications for being fairly lousy human beings.
- BurningFrog 5y agoThe loudest voices for an ideology are usually a shitshow, especially online. Libertarians also have the specific problem that we attract a disproportionate number of people who hate everything...
- czbond 5y agoI've seen the term mis-characterized, for lack of a better word. I've seen European libertarian, eastern (US) libertarian, southern (US) libertarian people describe their beliefs all in vastly different ways. Some I'd characterize as heavily socialist, some heavily.... right, some heavily left, some just as a "alternative" to two main US parties.
- ethbr0 5y agoIsn't the quintessential libertarian belief some flavor of "I believe you deserve the maximum possible freedom to act and speak"? In which case it seems entirely possible to be a libertarian and have strong personal beliefs of wildly different flavors.
- api 5y agoI think the decline of libertarian attitudes is part of why things are so polarized, for exactly that reason. If we can live and let live it’s okay if we think differently. If we are arguing over what everyone must be forced to do, disagreement becomes an actual threat.
- FactolSarin 5y agoI don't know what the textbook definition is, but I think libertarianism (in the US, in my experience) is more about being against government regulation. Even if regulation would increase freedom (for, say, a minority group) libertarians will tend to be against it.
- api 5y agoIt depends. Libertarians of the more Randian school tend toward the view that there are only individual rights, not “states rights” and such. If the Fed intervenes to support individual rights that is justified. Local tyranny is not superior to Federal tyranny.
- czbond 5y agoYeah - could be! I had never thought of it that way.