34 ms·

It’s a worthy goal but I doubt the government could move the needle with any amount of money, much less with just $1.8 billion. Culture is incredibly difficult

It’s a worthy goal but I doubt the government could move the needle with any amount of money, much less with just $1.8 billion. Culture is incredibly difficult to intentionally shift. People actively resist when they feel they are being manipulated even if it is supposed to be for their own good.

mdorazio 5y ago
I disagree. The government could easily move the needle if it had the guts to implement nationwide financial changes that would actually make a difference on food contents - tax sugary foods & drinks, implement a sugar daily % value, end corn and dairy subsidies, etc.
- bradleyjg 5y ago
  I remember when Bloomberg put in some sugary food taxes in NYC. Do you know if there’s any data on whether those policies worked?
  - mdorazio 5y ago
    I remember it being unpopular, but haven't seen results on the NYC one specifically. Wikipedia has a roundup of results on a few similar implementations, though, and they seem to somewhat work: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugary_drink_tax#Consumption https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugary_drink_tax#Consumption
wolverine876 5y ago
> Culture is incredibly difficult to intentionally shift. Look how much culture has changed in the last few years, in a direction that closely matches the intentions of some powerful people. Look at changes around public health, smoking for example. > People actively resist when they feel they are being manipulated The only way to change things is to manipulate people? > It’s a worthy goal but I doubt the government could move the needle with any amount of money If you are talking about promoting exercise, here I agree: More money isn't always needed.
cjbgkagh 5y ago
Culture is easy to shift, Madison Avenue style ad companies specialize in it. The Frankfurt School is a positive theory that focuses on changing society. Modern nudge initiatives are continuations of this. I would say that the majority of modern culture was at some point the product of some campaign.
- petra 5y ago
  Some parts of culture are easier to create than others. But losing weight? Endless amounts of effort is already spent towards this goal, it is deeply embedded in our culture(for ex. Fat shaming). I don't some large ad campaign would change that much.
  - cjbgkagh 5y ago
    I think there is a rather powerful fat acceptance movement paid for by food lobbyists. Being fat is only socially unacceptable among my upper class friends, I think the middle class has leaned into it. I think being able to have healthcare discriminate based on smoking has been hugely impactful in cutting US smoking rates, I think the same should be done for being overweight.
    - acchow 5y ago
      They've flipped "fat shaming" into "fat pride", which is the latest territory of "wokeness"
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > I think there is a rather powerful fat acceptance movement paid for by food lobbyists. Fat anxiety is driven by food industry propagandists (more marketers than lobbyists.) Most weight-loss companies are basically high-priced subscription food services with add-on food marketing and a hook that gets people to pay for that as a service. While they've become a big enough business too often be standalone, it's not telling that Weight Watches spent a couple decades as a subsidiary of HJ Heinz. > I think being able to have healthcare discriminate based on smoking has been hugely impactful in cutting US smoking rates Health insurance was never prevented from discriminating on that basis, even while smoking rates went through the roof. There's plenty of policies for which there is evidence of utility in cutting smoking rates, health insurance price discrimination isn't one of them.
WaitWaitWha 5y ago
I sedulously disagree. https://www.globalissues.org/article/532/media-manipulation https://www.globalissues.org/article/532/media-manipulation https://spinwatch.org/ https://spinwatch.org/ (note: this is not an endorsement of these sites, but took me 30 seconds to locate online, and verify at least glancingly.)
- bradleyjg 5y ago
  Same question (hopefully not the same answer): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30238626 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30238626
- deeviant 5y ago
  Getting people to hate other people, that's easy, the us vs them is baked into human psychology. Getting people to eat less, not so much.
  - ethanbond 5y ago
    People wanting to feel good, be more sexually appealing, sleep better, and so on? The desire to achieve higher fitness is pretty ubiquitous, but that is always up against how hard it is to achieve. There are certainly things an org like NIH could do to make it much easier. Better tools, better information, deep subsidization of healthy alternatives all come to mind. The idea that we cannot make substantial improvements to people’s decision-making context and instead should spend all this money trying to hack the genome is obviously ridiculous.
    - manwe150 5y ago
      Are you honestly believing that fat people don’t enjoy life and food, have bad sex, and and stay awake at night worrying about it? I think you will find instead that overweight people are of typical happiness. I think someone has mislead you with false advertising, and done a better job at sharing information than the NIH could ever hope to manage.
      - 5y ago

mdorazio 5y ago

I disagree. The government could easily move the needle if it had the guts to implement nationwide financial changes that would actually make a difference on food contents - tax sugary foods & drinks, implement a sugar daily % value, end corn and dairy subsidies, etc.

bradleyjg 5y ago
I remember when Bloomberg put in some sugary food taxes in NYC. Do you know if there’s any data on whether those policies worked?
- mdorazio 5y ago
  I remember it being unpopular, but haven't seen results on the NYC one specifically. Wikipedia has a roundup of results on a few similar implementations, though, and they seem to somewhat work: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugary_drink_tax#Consumption https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugary_drink_tax#Consumption

wolverine876 5y ago

> Culture is incredibly difficult to intentionally shift. Look how much culture has changed in the last few years, in a direction that closely matches the intentions of some powerful people. Look at changes around public health, smoking for example. > People actively resist when they feel they are being manipulated The only way to change things is to manipulate people? > It’s a worthy goal but I doubt the government could move the needle with any amount of money If you are talking about promoting exercise, here I agree: More money isn't always needed.

cjbgkagh 5y ago

Culture is easy to shift, Madison Avenue style ad companies specialize in it. The Frankfurt School is a positive theory that focuses on changing society. Modern nudge initiatives are continuations of this. I would say that the majority of modern culture was at some point the product of some campaign.

petra 5y ago
Some parts of culture are easier to create than others. But losing weight? Endless amounts of effort is already spent towards this goal, it is deeply embedded in our culture(for ex. Fat shaming). I don't some large ad campaign would change that much.
- cjbgkagh 5y ago
  I think there is a rather powerful fat acceptance movement paid for by food lobbyists. Being fat is only socially unacceptable among my upper class friends, I think the middle class has leaned into it. I think being able to have healthcare discriminate based on smoking has been hugely impactful in cutting US smoking rates, I think the same should be done for being overweight.
  - acchow 5y ago
    They've flipped "fat shaming" into "fat pride", which is the latest territory of "wokeness"
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > I think there is a rather powerful fat acceptance movement paid for by food lobbyists. Fat anxiety is driven by food industry propagandists (more marketers than lobbyists.) Most weight-loss companies are basically high-priced subscription food services with add-on food marketing and a hook that gets people to pay for that as a service. While they've become a big enough business too often be standalone, it's not telling that Weight Watches spent a couple decades as a subsidiary of HJ Heinz. > I think being able to have healthcare discriminate based on smoking has been hugely impactful in cutting US smoking rates Health insurance was never prevented from discriminating on that basis, even while smoking rates went through the roof. There's plenty of policies for which there is evidence of utility in cutting smoking rates, health insurance price discrimination isn't one of them.

WaitWaitWha 5y ago

I sedulously disagree. https://www.globalissues.org/article/532/media-manipulation https://www.globalissues.org/article/532/media-manipulation https://spinwatch.org/ https://spinwatch.org/ (note: this is not an endorsement of these sites, but took me 30 seconds to locate online, and verify at least glancingly.)

bradleyjg 5y ago
Same question (hopefully not the same answer): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30238626 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30238626
deeviant 5y ago
Getting people to hate other people, that's easy, the us vs them is baked into human psychology. Getting people to eat less, not so much.
- ethanbond 5y ago
  People wanting to feel good, be more sexually appealing, sleep better, and so on? The desire to achieve higher fitness is pretty ubiquitous, but that is always up against how hard it is to achieve. There are certainly things an org like NIH could do to make it much easier. Better tools, better information, deep subsidization of healthy alternatives all come to mind. The idea that we cannot make substantial improvements to people’s decision-making context and instead should spend all this money trying to hack the genome is obviously ridiculous.
  - manwe150 5y ago
    Are you honestly believing that fat people don’t enjoy life and food, have bad sex, and and stay awake at night worrying about it? I think you will find instead that overweight people are of typical happiness. I think someone has mislead you with false advertising, and done a better job at sharing information than the NIH could ever hope to manage.
    - 5y ago