5 ms·

Since diet can affect the microbiome of the gut and I can't imagine how gut bacteria affect moods (although I'm open to the idea I suppose) I'd wager it is actu

Since diet can affect the microbiome of the gut and I can't imagine how gut bacteria affect moods (although I'm open to the idea I suppose) I'd wager it is actually diet and nutritional input that affects mood as well as the gut bacteria. Makes more sense to me that your mood can be affected by your diet, and what we are measuring is the altered microbiome of the gut because of the diet.

BatteryMountain 5y ago
If you ever have/get anxiety/panic attacks you will KNOW where it all starts.. in the stomach. This is not something people imagine. I 100% do not wish this stuff on our worst enemies.
roywiggins 5y ago
You wouldn't expect a fecal transplant to help if the bacteria were entirely incidental though.
- PragmaticPulp 5y ago
  Two patients and no control group is virtually useless for drawing any conclusions: > Indeed, researchers recently reported in Frontiers in Psychiatry that fecal transplants improved symptoms in two depressed patients. Depression research is challenging because even placebo groups tend to have dramatic improvements.
  - robocat 5y ago
    > Two patients and no control group is virtually useless for drawing any conclusions That is a frequentist argument. If the response to treatment is significant enough, then that is a worthwhile signal (cliché: parachutes save lives without a control group). Placebo is an obvious contender. However presuming the patients had a chronic condition with plenty of previous interventions, then the placebo effect has had plenty of chances in the past. If it were due to placebo then there would be something to learn about why the placebo effect were so effective in that situation!
sushid 5y ago
So... you can imagine how gut bacteria affect mood after all?
- winrid 5y ago
  I wonder which gut bacteria make me crave cheap Mac and Cheese...
  - galangalalgol 5y ago
    It seems like you are joking, but many of the fecal transplant patients report their food preferences changing, sometimes dramatically.
    - winrid 5y ago
      Half joking. I do wonder about how the bacteria influences cravings, and if sometimes a craving means I'm missing some kind of vitamin/mineral.
- taeric 5y ago
  To be fair, I think the parent is that they expect that both are affected in similar ways. That is, gut biome is an effect, not an affect with regard to mood. The sibling point that treatments targeting the biome would be expected to fail, if that were the case, is complication.
eightysixfour 5y ago
As mentioned in the article, there is already a causal hypotheses for why the biome itself is the cause, certain people have strong immune responses to the products of these bacteria which causes a chronic inflammatory response.
tejtm 5y ago
..." I can't imagine how gut bacteria affect moods"... But you can imagine looking at a picture and feeling hungry. In addition to our fast new electrical nervous system for rapid response there is the older slower endocrine system from when we were just bags of chemicals coordinating with concentration gradients (still are, but were). visual -> brain -> signals gut -> gut makes molecules to get ready -> molecules detected report to brain -> you drool Moods depend on the chemical balance of small molecules bacteria eat sleep and poop small small molecules. To consider that after billions of years of coexisting we, both multi cell & single cell, have not adapted to responding each others's small molecules is unthinkable
antiterra 5y ago
There has been scientific recognition of the gut affecting brain function for well over 100 years. This might help it make more sense: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5772764/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5772764/
manmal 5y ago
If you believe that nutritional input has an effect on mood, then, by proxy, you also believe that the microbiome has an effect. We have outsourced a lot of food preprocessing to gut microbes, and if they are wiped out, then you‘ll suffer from malnutrition.

BatteryMountain 5y ago

If you ever have/get anxiety/panic attacks you will KNOW where it all starts.. in the stomach. This is not something people imagine. I 100% do not wish this stuff on our worst enemies.

roywiggins 5y ago

You wouldn't expect a fecal transplant to help if the bacteria were entirely incidental though.

PragmaticPulp 5y ago
Two patients and no control group is virtually useless for drawing any conclusions: > Indeed, researchers recently reported in Frontiers in Psychiatry that fecal transplants improved symptoms in two depressed patients. Depression research is challenging because even placebo groups tend to have dramatic improvements.
- robocat 5y ago
  > Two patients and no control group is virtually useless for drawing any conclusions That is a frequentist argument. If the response to treatment is significant enough, then that is a worthwhile signal (cliché: parachutes save lives without a control group). Placebo is an obvious contender. However presuming the patients had a chronic condition with plenty of previous interventions, then the placebo effect has had plenty of chances in the past. If it were due to placebo then there would be something to learn about why the placebo effect were so effective in that situation!

sushid 5y ago

So... you can imagine how gut bacteria affect mood after all?

winrid 5y ago
I wonder which gut bacteria make me crave cheap Mac and Cheese...
- galangalalgol 5y ago
  It seems like you are joking, but many of the fecal transplant patients report their food preferences changing, sometimes dramatically.
  - winrid 5y ago
    Half joking. I do wonder about how the bacteria influences cravings, and if sometimes a craving means I'm missing some kind of vitamin/mineral.
taeric 5y ago
To be fair, I think the parent is that they expect that both are affected in similar ways. That is, gut biome is an effect, not an affect with regard to mood. The sibling point that treatments targeting the biome would be expected to fail, if that were the case, is complication.

eightysixfour 5y ago

As mentioned in the article, there is already a causal hypotheses for why the biome itself is the cause, certain people have strong immune responses to the products of these bacteria which causes a chronic inflammatory response.

tejtm 5y ago

..." I can't imagine how gut bacteria affect moods"... But you can imagine looking at a picture and feeling hungry. In addition to our fast new electrical nervous system for rapid response there is the older slower endocrine system from when we were just bags of chemicals coordinating with concentration gradients (still are, but were). visual -> brain -> signals gut -> gut makes molecules to get ready -> molecules detected report to brain -> you drool Moods depend on the chemical balance of small molecules bacteria eat sleep and poop small small molecules. To consider that after billions of years of coexisting we, both multi cell & single cell, have not adapted to responding each others's small molecules is unthinkable

antiterra 5y ago

There has been scientific recognition of the gut affecting brain function for well over 100 years. This might help it make more sense: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5772764/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5772764/

manmal 5y ago

If you believe that nutritional input has an effect on mood, then, by proxy, you also believe that the microbiome has an effect. We have outsourced a lot of food preprocessing to gut microbes, and if they are wiped out, then you‘ll suffer from malnutrition.