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And homeschooling is skyrocketing nationwide as more parents decide to pull their kids from government schools. Long-term, I think we will see an even greater m

And homeschooling is skyrocketing nationwide as more parents decide to pull their kids from government schools. Long-term, I think we will see an even greater move in this direction.

ryandrake 5y ago
I'd like to be excited about homeschooling and other alternate-schooling, but unfortunately my anecdotal experience with people (acquaintances, sometimes co-workers) who were the outcome of homeschooling biases me. The theory is great: DIY things that you can do better than the "pros". I DIY almost all the maintenance on my house, so it makes sense that one could possibly teach better than public school teachers. But then you look at the actual reasons people are homeschooling, and by and large, it's parents who are opposing some perceived "indoctrination": Fundamentalist Christians objecting to things like sex ed, biology, evolution. More and more now, it looks like it's not just being driven by religion but by political ideology. Our local "moms" group is full of people pulling their kids out to prevent them from "being indoctrinated by the liberals" and for anti-vax reasons. For every 1 parent homeschooling because they really can provide a better education at home, there are probably 100 parents who are totally unqualified, will leave huge gaps in their kids' education, and are only doing it for ideological reasons. In theory, having a smart parent at home DIYing their kids' education sounds like a great idea, but in practice, it's all the wrong people doing it for all the wrong reasons.
- 1123581321 5y ago
  It’s good that you are aware these individuals have influenced your bias in this area. The “DIY vs professional” mental model is not as helpful as other perspectives when evaluating homeschooling. Homeschooling is an extension of parenting, something we do not outsource outside of extreme situations, often involving criminal behavior. The ideal child-curriculum-pedagogy fit for each stage of growth for each child varies so much that understanding the child is a valuable educational skill. Parents are in a unique position to exercise this skill. Where teachers do outperform parents as professionals is in leading a group of students to achieve standards in tandem within a large bureaucracy. The skill of deep per-child customization and response becomes less important than skills like public speaking, organizational psychology, reporting and forming rapport with strangers. Trained teachers outperform any particular child’s parent in these tasks.
- rgrieselhuber 5y ago
  I think you just made the case for more homeschooling. Families are allowed to educate their children with their own values, whether or not we all agree on the same things.
  - pixl97 5y ago
    "We agree on an alternate set... of facts"
    - rgrieselhuber 5y ago
      That's what happens when open inquiry and free speech are curtailed.
    - jimmygrapes 5y ago
      "We agree on the same facts, but differ in our definition of fact and the conclusions made from and consequent to those facts" seems more appropriate. There are a lot of "facts" that are really just assertions, with varying levels of evidence or proofs or universal applicability. The idea of rights is a good example of facts per this definition. If it's facts like mathematical or logical axioms, or similar such things that are virtually undisputed except by the utmost extreme fringe elements of humanity, probably we agree what a fact is. If it's "scientific consensus" well... maybe still, but it's getting hazy. If it's "lived experience" or "history as written by the victors" then we aren't agreeing on what a fact is anymore, in my opinion. And there are many levels of variability below that. The conclusions made based on a fact are progressively more impacted by the amount of variability. The consequences arising from making decisions based on those conclusions even moreso. If the conclusion is "my children will be treated like prisoners in public school and informed subtly through virtually every lesson plan that their skin color changes how they are supposed to behave and how they should view their positions in life" are that I vote for somebody who supports charter schools and voucher systems, the consequences might be that I end up campaigning for that single issue regardless of party or candidate. Or maybe it's just taking my kids out of school and using one of the many pre-made self-learning curricula for a variety of topics and give them a laptop and frequent checkups to ensure they're learning. Or maybe I outsource it to my church. Or maybe I outsource it to YouTube and Wikipedia. Or maybe I say fuck it and let them go play in the yard all day, or go to the mall, or go to their own protests all day, or join a street gang, or try to get tiktok views, or invent some thing, or write a book, or overdose, or chat on discord all day, or get a job, or join a club. Lot of options, lot of ways to "fail to educate" on any given topic.
- s1artibartfast 5y ago
  Everyone I know that has the funds are pulling their kids out primarily for the indoctrination aspect, and I plan to do the same. I would dispute that this is the wrong reasons. The most common complaint I hear is around racial theory/ identity politics/ or whatever you want to call it. People don't like their 1st grade child being taught that they are an oppressor by virtue of their birth and guilty and responsible for generations of injustice. These are views that I believe are harmful and untrue. I would feel the same way if the school was was teaching the earth revolved around the sun, or God made women to be subservient to men
  - ModernMech 5y ago
    I don't think the parent was arguing necessarily that its wrong for parents to want their children to be taught certain things or a certain way. I think the argument being put forth was that most parents don't have what it takes to teach their kids. Let's say you take your kid out of school because you don't like what he's being taught in history class or whatever. Okay, well do you have what it takes to teach your kid music, art, geometry, calc, English, physics, biology, chemistry, etc. Most people I would say don't have that kind of broad capacity. So what happens is parents start forming homeschool support groups, they pool resources, divide responsibilities based on expertise and knowledge, and eventually recreate the concept of a school from scratch. I guess it can then eventually undergo the same moral fracture and the cycle repeats.
    - rgrieselhuber 5y ago
      The homeschool support groups add a lot in this context and I foresee a time where every suburb and neighborhood will have one or more of them. That, combined with all of the curricula available offline and online, there isn't much specialized knowledge that parents need to have in order to get started. By the time kids hit middle school and high school, they are able to do quite a bit of learning on their own and are taught how to seek out help if they need it.
      - phil21 5y ago
        > The homeschool support groups add a lot in this context Also was home schooled for 5 years. From watching others I can fairly confidently say my parents were far above average for the time and area in terms of being educators and trying to get ahead of the "socialization" curve. They had degrees and tried their best to teach to lesson plans prepared by professionals, modifying as they saw fit. These groups tout how well-rounded they are, but many are bluntly filled with extremist nutjobs. Abusively so in many cases. My parents were utterly blind to this, and to this day like to talk about how "well rounded" socially I was. I was not. I was exposed to the nutjobs and crackpots of society in a fairly intimate manner at a very young age, with very little supervision other than whichever adults were performing a given lesson at the time. Not saying this to scare anyone away from home schooling. If done thoughtfully, carefully, and evidence-based it certainly can have great outcomes. I just have my hairs stand on end when I hear folks talk about these groups as some sort of fix for the problem - when in fact they are the problem to begin with in my experience. Homeschool may be becoming more "mainstream" but I think a lot of folks just now starting out due to the pandemic are in for some very hard truths in the next couple years.

And homeschooling is skyrocketing nationwide as more parents decide to pull their kids from government schools. Long-term, I think we will see an even greater move in this direction.

ryandrake 5y ago

I'd like to be excited about homeschooling and other alternate-schooling, but unfortunately my anecdotal experience with people (acquaintances, sometimes co-workers) who were the outcome of homeschooling biases me. The theory is great: DIY things that you can do better than the "pros". I DIY almost all the maintenance on my house, so it makes sense that one could possibly teach better than public school teachers. But then you look at the actual reasons people are homeschooling, and by and large, it's parents who are opposing some perceived "indoctrination": Fundamentalist Christians objecting to things like sex ed, biology, evolution. More and more now, it looks like it's not just being driven by religion but by political ideology. Our local "moms" group is full of people pulling their kids out to prevent them from "being indoctrinated by the liberals" and for anti-vax reasons. For every 1 parent homeschooling because they really can provide a better education at home, there are probably 100 parents who are totally unqualified, will leave huge gaps in their kids' education, and are only doing it for ideological reasons. In theory, having a smart parent at home DIYing their kids' education sounds like a great idea, but in practice, it's all the wrong people doing it for all the wrong reasons.

1123581321 5y ago
It’s good that you are aware these individuals have influenced your bias in this area. The “DIY vs professional” mental model is not as helpful as other perspectives when evaluating homeschooling. Homeschooling is an extension of parenting, something we do not outsource outside of extreme situations, often involving criminal behavior. The ideal child-curriculum-pedagogy fit for each stage of growth for each child varies so much that understanding the child is a valuable educational skill. Parents are in a unique position to exercise this skill. Where teachers do outperform parents as professionals is in leading a group of students to achieve standards in tandem within a large bureaucracy. The skill of deep per-child customization and response becomes less important than skills like public speaking, organizational psychology, reporting and forming rapport with strangers. Trained teachers outperform any particular child’s parent in these tasks.
rgrieselhuber 5y ago
I think you just made the case for more homeschooling. Families are allowed to educate their children with their own values, whether or not we all agree on the same things.
- pixl97 5y ago
  "We agree on an alternate set... of facts"
  - rgrieselhuber 5y ago
    That's what happens when open inquiry and free speech are curtailed.
  - jimmygrapes 5y ago
    "We agree on the same facts, but differ in our definition of fact and the conclusions made from and consequent to those facts" seems more appropriate. There are a lot of "facts" that are really just assertions, with varying levels of evidence or proofs or universal applicability. The idea of rights is a good example of facts per this definition. If it's facts like mathematical or logical axioms, or similar such things that are virtually undisputed except by the utmost extreme fringe elements of humanity, probably we agree what a fact is. If it's "scientific consensus" well... maybe still, but it's getting hazy. If it's "lived experience" or "history as written by the victors" then we aren't agreeing on what a fact is anymore, in my opinion. And there are many levels of variability below that. The conclusions made based on a fact are progressively more impacted by the amount of variability. The consequences arising from making decisions based on those conclusions even moreso. If the conclusion is "my children will be treated like prisoners in public school and informed subtly through virtually every lesson plan that their skin color changes how they are supposed to behave and how they should view their positions in life" are that I vote for somebody who supports charter schools and voucher systems, the consequences might be that I end up campaigning for that single issue regardless of party or candidate. Or maybe it's just taking my kids out of school and using one of the many pre-made self-learning curricula for a variety of topics and give them a laptop and frequent checkups to ensure they're learning. Or maybe I outsource it to my church. Or maybe I outsource it to YouTube and Wikipedia. Or maybe I say fuck it and let them go play in the yard all day, or go to the mall, or go to their own protests all day, or join a street gang, or try to get tiktok views, or invent some thing, or write a book, or overdose, or chat on discord all day, or get a job, or join a club. Lot of options, lot of ways to "fail to educate" on any given topic.
s1artibartfast 5y ago
Everyone I know that has the funds are pulling their kids out primarily for the indoctrination aspect, and I plan to do the same. I would dispute that this is the wrong reasons. The most common complaint I hear is around racial theory/ identity politics/ or whatever you want to call it. People don't like their 1st grade child being taught that they are an oppressor by virtue of their birth and guilty and responsible for generations of injustice. These are views that I believe are harmful and untrue. I would feel the same way if the school was was teaching the earth revolved around the sun, or God made women to be subservient to men
- ModernMech 5y ago
  I don't think the parent was arguing necessarily that its wrong for parents to want their children to be taught certain things or a certain way. I think the argument being put forth was that most parents don't have what it takes to teach their kids. Let's say you take your kid out of school because you don't like what he's being taught in history class or whatever. Okay, well do you have what it takes to teach your kid music, art, geometry, calc, English, physics, biology, chemistry, etc. Most people I would say don't have that kind of broad capacity. So what happens is parents start forming homeschool support groups, they pool resources, divide responsibilities based on expertise and knowledge, and eventually recreate the concept of a school from scratch. I guess it can then eventually undergo the same moral fracture and the cycle repeats.
  - rgrieselhuber 5y ago
    The homeschool support groups add a lot in this context and I foresee a time where every suburb and neighborhood will have one or more of them. That, combined with all of the curricula available offline and online, there isn't much specialized knowledge that parents need to have in order to get started. By the time kids hit middle school and high school, they are able to do quite a bit of learning on their own and are taught how to seek out help if they need it.
    - phil21 5y ago
      > The homeschool support groups add a lot in this context Also was home schooled for 5 years. From watching others I can fairly confidently say my parents were far above average for the time and area in terms of being educators and trying to get ahead of the "socialization" curve. They had degrees and tried their best to teach to lesson plans prepared by professionals, modifying as they saw fit. These groups tout how well-rounded they are, but many are bluntly filled with extremist nutjobs. Abusively so in many cases. My parents were utterly blind to this, and to this day like to talk about how "well rounded" socially I was. I was not. I was exposed to the nutjobs and crackpots of society in a fairly intimate manner at a very young age, with very little supervision other than whichever adults were performing a given lesson at the time. Not saying this to scare anyone away from home schooling. If done thoughtfully, carefully, and evidence-based it certainly can have great outcomes. I just have my hairs stand on end when I hear folks talk about these groups as some sort of fix for the problem - when in fact they are the problem to begin with in my experience. Homeschool may be becoming more "mainstream" but I think a lot of folks just now starting out due to the pandemic are in for some very hard truths in the next couple years.