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I’m 34 and healthy. Each of my shots and the booster gave me severe flu-like side effects (chills, body aches, etc). I’ve lost 5-6 days over the last year to re

I’m 34 and healthy. Each of my shots and the booster gave me severe flu-like side effects (chills, body aches, etc). I’ve lost 5-6 days over the last year to recovering from these side effects. Given my low risk from the actual virus, I don’t see myself getting another booster. I’m not anti-science, but there needs to be significant ROI for that level of discomfort and time lost to recovery.

CoryAlexMartin 5y ago
I was 28 when I got the Johnson and Johnson vaccine last April. I had bad flu-like symptoms for a week, which was followed by 3 months of lethargy, among other things. I can't even begin to imagine how much time I lost from that. Needless to say, I opted not to get a booster.
- michaelmrose 5y ago
  I'm not aware of anyone having bad flu like symptoms for a week or 3 months of lethargy from J and J. Are you sure you didn't actually get covid? On balance that seems substantially more likely.
  - N1H1L 5y ago
    yep - OP got COVID.
    - michaelmrose 5y ago
      This is kind of an example of why relying on personal experience and anecdotes is so bad. OP took intelligent countermeasures to avoid a negative outcome which was unfortunately ineffectual due to mischance. Despite the theory making no sense OP assigned the consequences of covid to the vaccination he received not due to a sound theory but due to proximity in time and will now make measurably worse choices for decades for lack of communicating with a medical professional. We rarely know what we don't know.
      - maskil 5y ago
        What's your sound theory (that it's the result of Covid and not a vaccine with documented side effects that he happened to take the morning of)?
      - CoryAlexMartin 5y ago
        Some degree of caution is warranted on the part of the individual when unwelcome side effects manifest following a drug or vaccine. Doubly so when you can find cases where others have reported the same side effects. https://www.reddit.com/r/CovidVaccinated/comments/nnqm8u/long_term_fatigue_after_vaccine/ https://www.reddit.com/r/CovidVaccinated/comments/nnqm8u/lon... We are also dealing with a novel (and evolving) virus and an even more novel set of vaccines. We're still learning about both. I find it silly that one could possess hubris about their stance on such a matter.
  - CoryAlexMartin 5y ago
    I may have misspoke when I said "bad" flu-like symptoms: they were on par with symptoms from the flu, not relatively worse (although, unpleasant), and they were all expected side effects and began the night I got the vaccine. The several months of lethargy accompanied with random pains was the unexpected part. I was quarantining at the time and hadn't gone anywhere except the place where I got the vaccine. It would be ironic if I wound up getting COVID there, which lengthened and intensified my side effects. I hadn't considered that before.
    - Fatnino 5y ago
      The line to get my first covid shot was the largest group of people I had been around for a very long time. Much longer than the lockdown was. It was about an hour of walking back and forth in the switchbacks. Outdoors in the sun. Such is the cost of getting it during the early rush. Second shot was much quicker line, and booster I got a bit late so no line to speak of.
  - pxmpxm 5y ago
    For what it's worth, the J&J aftermath experience for me was on par with actually having covid 8 months prior. Having also had omni (apparently getting covid is my superpower) with symptoms on par with a mediocre sore throat, I have absolutely no desire to repeat the vaccine experience.
- josephcsible 5y ago
  > Needless to say, I opted not to get a booster. You're lucky if opting out is a practical choice for you. For a lot of people now, opting out means being expelled from your school or fired from your job.
  - nradov 5y ago
    Santa Clara County has started disciplining workers who don't comply with their booster mandate. (I'm not endorsing punishing workers on that basis, just noting that it is occurring.) https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2022/02/03/santa-clara-county-covid-19-vaccine-booster-deadline-200-workers-disciplined/ https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2022/02/03/santa-clara-cou...
  - nathanaldensr 5y ago
    I was placed on unpaid leave by my Fortune 100 employer for not getting the injection despite being 100% remote. I will be fired on March 1.
    - kyriakos 5y ago
      Wow this is ridiculous. I'm not antivaxer and got all 3 shots but I cannot understand this attitude from companies and the legal framework that allows them to act like this. I assume you work in the US?
  - pizza234 5y ago
    From the opposite point of view, many people consider themselves lucky that coworkers who decided to opt out are expelled/fired. The focus should be on whether a given imposition has a net positive for society or not, rather than the imposition itself. I actually find it very indicative that the root comment's conclusion is entirely about the ROI for the individual. It's fair to judge that not boosting doesn't have any net positive for society, but that discussion should be the focus.
- SOLAR_FIELDS 5y ago
  I was 30 when I got COVID in October of 2020. I spent 6 months recovering from the illness with symptoms ranging from myocarditis to Reynauds syndrome. As I type this message, pain erupts in my right lung as I inhale. If I had the vaccine available to me at that time maybe I wouldn’t be experiencing a constant reminder of my illness every time I inhale.
  - ensan 5y ago
    1- We’re talking about boosters, not vaccines in general. 2- Sorry you’re unlucky. But even fully vaccinated people there are going to be cases like this. Such is life.
    - Arnt 5y ago
      I think what GP meant to say is "I would've taken that vaccine/booster to reduce the chance of suffering these six months". It's a game of chance. Digressing, some people suffer much more than others from the vaccines, and ditto from the disease. I've wondered whether they're the same. Is it the same unknown factor at work? Does suffering for days from the vaccines mean that you're someone who'd suffer for months from the disease, or even die?
      - nradov 5y ago
        There is no direct correlation between severity of vaccine side effects and level of protection from disease. https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/covid-19-vaccine-if-you-had-no-side-effects-are-you-protected https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/covid-19-vaccine-i...
        Arnt 5y ago
        That's not what I had in mind, actually. Consider two possibilities, both fairly remote and I have absolutely no reason to believe that they're real. First, suppose that the people who suffer badly from the vaccines/virus do so 100% because of some factor that comes and goes, such as having slept badly. In this case, suffering badly from a vaccine does not mean that you would suffer badly from the disease. Second, suppose that the people who suffer badly do so 100% because of some genetic factor, such as having a single gene for a particular recessive disease. In this case, if you suffer badly from a vaccine it means that you've saved yourself even worse suffering when the disease finally finds you.
enraged_camel 5y ago
You spent 5-6 days over the last year recovering from side effects, but you don't really know what the alternative would have been. You may be healthy and relatively young, but without the vaccine shots you would most likely have had much more severe symptoms.
- toolz 5y ago
  You're gonna need to provide some citation that young, no comorbidity individuals have "most likely" more severe symptoms when they have 2 doses vs 3.
  - airstrike 5y ago
    I think there have been a few studies suggesting vaccine effectiveness declines over time
  - michaelmrose 5y ago
    Neutralization of omicron was massively improved by a third shot. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-00214-3 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-00214-3 >Blood from individuals who received one or two doses had little ability to neutralize Omicron. But blood from people who had received a booster dose of an mRNA vaccine fought the variant effectively. Their neutralization capacity against Omicron was only four- to sixfold lower than against the original strain. While younger healthier folks are much less likely to have severe symptoms in the first place there is no reason to believe that what chance they have of experiencing such doesn't decrease further with boosting.
    - toolz 5y ago
      from the study referenced in the article you linked > Finally, the number of hospitalized individuals included was too small to draw definitive conclusions regarding VE[1] and durability of 3 doses in preventing hospitalization. [1] Vaccine Effectiveness effectively this isn't a source that supports the claim that young, no-comorbidity individuals are more likely to get severe disease with 2 doses compared to 3
deleted 5y ago
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vvanders 5y ago
> Given my low risk from the actual virus ... It's not about your risk, it's about transmission to other people that have a much higher risk profile. [edit] Thanks for the downvotes, confirms that people care less about others than experiencing any inconvenience themselves.
- christophilus 5y ago
  Everyone transmits the virus. The vaccines don’t do much in that regard, though from what I’ve read. They do a good job of preventing severe disease.
  - vvanders 5y ago
    Gonna need to cite some sources there. The current recommendation is to get a booster because it both reduces the severity of the disease and the chance of either catching a breakthrough infection or another variant[1]/[2]. [1] https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/effectiveness/why-measure-effectiveness/breakthrough-cases.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/effective... [2] https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#rates-by-vaccine-status https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#rates-by-vaccine-s...
    - christophilus 5y ago
      https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099%2821%2900768-4/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3... I don’t remember where I read it originally, but the lancet is roughly what I recall. It’s not 100% conclusive, but the data seems to point towards roughly the same transmission rate.
      - vvanders 5y ago
        That doesn't track with either the CDC data above, other studies[1] or what we know about other variants. [1] https://mobile.twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1476212140956553222 https://mobile.twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1476212140956553...
Hokusai 5y ago
christophilus 5y ago
40, but same story. I just got over Omicron last week. It was roughly the same experience I had when I got the first Moderna shot. I rarely get the flu, and never get a flu shot for the same reason— the shot guarantees me a week of flu symptoms. At some point, I’ll be far enough along the risk curve to warrant that annual unpleasantness, but I’m not there yet.
- micromacrofoot 5y ago
  isn’t it possible that your experience with omicron was only similar to the shot reaction because you had some immunity?
  - gameswithgo 5y ago
    of course, but he is going to continue to have some immunity for a long time
  - dml2135 5y ago
    Certainly possible, but not necessarily. I had covid before the vaccines, and the vaccines were way worse in terms of intensity of discomfort. Covid was still worse in terms of duration. But I won’t be getting a booster more often than maybe 2 years, as this becomes endemic.
    - SOLAR_FIELDS 5y ago
      Since we are doing anecdotal stories, I also had COVID before the vaccines and the disease was far, far, worse than the reactions I got from the shots. And I had rather shitty reactions from the shots as well. My reactions to the shots were about the same as what you described for your shots. I am younger than you and reasonably healthy.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
ajross 5y ago
Per the article, the ROI is a 2-4x reduction in hospitalization risk vs. a vaccinated-but-unboosted individual. Given that the side effects of the mRNA vaccines have essentially zero hospitalizations[1] and no deaths[2], that seems like a good deal to me. I mean, it's true anecdotally that the immunization is worse that the disease. It was true for my family at least (four Omicron cases, all extremely mild). But it's not true for everyone, and some of those people are going to die. I regret nothing. [1] I haven't seen numbers but haven't heard of any [2] This one is attested.
- umvi 5y ago
  2-4x reduction doesn't mean anything unless you know the original risk probability. For a low 30s person that isn't obese... The original risk is already probably a tiny number. It's like saying because an anti shark ointment that makes you break out in itchy rashes reduces your risk of getting attacked by a shark by 2-4x, therefore everyone at the beach should use it.
  - pxmpxm 5y ago
    Buying 4 lotto tickets quadruples your chance of winning.
  - ajross 5y ago
    I'm 50. The original risk, while surely a tiny number, looks rather different to me than it likely does to you.
    - yuliyp 5y ago
      It's "quite different" but still a tiny number even at 50: 0.4 deaths / 100k per week for the entire 50-64 age group (https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#rates-by-vaccine-status https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#rates-by-vaccine-s...): that translates to .02% chance of death per year from COVID while vaccinated at all. To contrast, overall mortality rate for the 45-54 age group per year in the US is just under 400 / 100k = 0.4% (page 27 of https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr70/nvsr70-08-508.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr70/nvsr70-08-508.pdf).
morpheuskafka 5y ago
I am inclined to agree with this. Getting one booster as an extra precaution was one thing (and in my case definitely made sense because my primary series was J&J, which is said should have been two dose to begin with). Getting one every 6-12 months for an indeterminate number of years needs to be based on more than just a general precautionary instinct.
tcbawo 5y ago
I would love to know if anyone has looked at data from identical twins re: vaccine side effects and succeptibility to Covid reactions. It seems like a strong reaction to the vaccine might correlate to a strong viral reaction. Are there any studies that refute or corroborate this?
- kyriakos 5y ago
  Identical twins rarely have the same immune system, part of the immune system develops with our exposure to pathogens which is unlikely to be the same for both twins.
armchairhacker 5y ago
Yeah but you're almost guaranteed to catch the virus at least once, and even if your symptoms aren't severe, they're likely to be worse had you not been vaccinated. 5-6 days of discomfort from vaccination may have saved you 5-6 days or more of discomfort from covid.
- roenxi 5y ago
  But presumably now he's had 5-6 days of discomfort, the vaccine antibodies will get flushed out and at some point he's going to get COVID and suffer 5-6 days of discomfort from COVID anyway. These first generation vaccines are a bit harsh which would make sense given that they were rushed through. It is unclear if they are suitable for frequent use given the side effects. COVID isn't going away, everyone's going to catch a couple of varients in the next 60 years assuming they live that long.
  - Nextgrid 5y ago
    To the best of our current understanding, the benefit of vaccination doesn't seem binary, so even if antibodies and thus immunity fades over time, it might still be beneficial to fight off a serious, life-threatening infection. The current stats suggest that even though the latest variants are way more infectious and can defeat the vaccine, most deaths still occur within the unvaccinated cohort.
0xB31B1B 5y ago
The main issue IMO is that the original dose schedule of 2 doses 1 month apart is stupid, goes against pretty much all of our first principles understanding of immunology, and was driven by a regulatory need for a short time window for testing/deployment (it’s quicker to test a vaccine w 1 month window than one with 6 month window), not due to science. The optimal dosing schedule is more likely to be once mRNA vaccine and a second one 6 months later. Source: family member is a chief scientist at a few drug discovery startups. Most people will have a durable immune response with the schedule above.
- lamontcg 5y ago
  No, the second dose greatly increases the efficacy against hospitalization and death in the short term. It wasn't "stupid" or "not due to science". It optimized for maximum vaccine efficacy at around the 5 week timepoint. Canada took a slightly longer dosing schedule to get more people their first doses faster due to having less available doses. But they didn't go with a 6 month interval either, and there's a difficult calculus there where it isn't at all obvious that one choice is "stupid". With Delta slamming into India and a lot of doses available in the USA the short schedule got the bulk of the population as immunized as possible. There's a whole lot of hindsight bias going in trying to claim that was just dumb or unscientific. It probably did save some lives in the summer of 2021 because we did have the doses in this country. Someone who got vaccinated in early April would have only been getting boosted then in early Oct 2021 and that would have been after 75% of the Delta wave had already passed. Second doses clearly needed to be going into arms sooner than 6 months and you can only figure out what timing might have been in optimal in retrospect when you know what the virus was going to do. It is correct that it didn't allow time for the immune response to mature before the boost and that is the rationale for the third shot. And for anyone getting vaccinated now, particularly young people a 6 month schedule of 2 doses may make more sense (although you always have to look at that 6 month interval and do the calculation on what the risk is of getting COVID during that interval -- at this point though presumably a person who isn't vaccinated isn't very concerned about that and probably has already been exposed at some point).
  - 0xB31B1B 5y ago
yen223 5y ago
I am also 34 and relatively healthy. When I got my Pfizer booster, I had a mild muscle ache for about half a day, and nothing else.
- newsbinator 5y ago
  Same here: mild muscle ache for the Pfizer booster. If I didn't know I'd had the booster the previous day, I would have attributed it to falling asleep on a lumpy part of my comforter or something, assuming I'd even noticed it at all. My understanding is the Moderna booster, being a 1.5x dose, often results in stronger side effects that knock a person out more often.
  - pinkorchid 5y ago
    The Moderna booster is actually a half dose, although I don't know if it tends to have stronger side effects than the first two full doses. Source: https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/coronavirus-covid-19-update-fda-takes-additional-actions-use-booster-dose-covid-19-vaccines https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/coronavi...
    - newsbinator 5y ago
      It's half the giant Moderna dose (100 mcg / 2 = 50 mcg), and 60% more than the standard/booster Pfizer dose (30 mcg).
  - kyriakos 5y ago
    Experience varies among the population. I had no notable side effects for the first 2 Pfizer shots but 3rd one had me in bed for 48 hours.
- afarviral 5y ago
  Same (pfizer) and this was the typical reaction in friends and family. A couple had minor flu-like symptoms for an afternoon but nothing like some have described here (days of "agony" etc), totally unheard of in my circles.
tunesmith 5y ago
You didn't mention the risk of other people getting it from you. Each shot has lessened that risk considerably. That alone can be worth it - it only takes so many generations (person passing to person) for one person's infection to cause a death in another.
- nradov 5y ago
  I encourage everyone eligible to protect themselves by getting vaccinated, but that won't stop widespread community transmission. Everyone will be exposed to the virus. https://www.medpagetoday.com/opinion/vinay-prasad/94646 https://www.medpagetoday.com/opinion/vinay-prasad/94646
- throwaway932489 5y ago
  It's a nice thing to do on the individual level but I don't think it's right to coerce people into the vaccine on this basis. An interesting reversal of this: https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinations/chickenpox-vaccine-questions-answers/ https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinations/chickenpox-vaccin... "Being exposed to chickenpox as an adult (for example, through contact with infected children) boosts your immunity to shingles." "If you vaccinate children against chickenpox, you lose this natural boosting, so immunity in adults will drop and more shingles cases will occur." It's seemingly not the primary justification the vaccine isn't offered, but I wonder if, to cut to the core question, those who are pro/anti vaccinating the low-risk to protect the high-risk feel the same way when it's flipped.
  - Eldt 5y ago
    Chickenpox is terrible in adults and is avoided for very good reasons.
  - extra88 5y ago
    I don’t think the shingles part is significant. Getting shingles is only common for seniors and there’s a vaccine for it too.
dnissley 5y ago
Same - I put off getting the booster until this past week and even though it's a half dose I still lost a day and a half to it.
jeeeb 5y ago
FWIW. I’m also in my mid-30’s and relatively healthy. I had a mild reaction to vaccination and lost no time to it. I also recently caught COVID. I had severe fever, headache, muscle ache and chills. I still get much more tired after mild exercise, like a long walk, than I did before. Vaccination certainly didn’t stop me from catching COVID but it likely did help me avoid a more severe outcome. I don’t believe in forcing it on others but I would strongly recommend it.
ornornor 5y ago
I had 3x Moderna. The last two shots made me feel like shit for 36h and 24h respectively. It wasn’t fun but ok. A friend of mine, same age, is in a couple where he isn’t vaccinated and she is (Pfizer). Of course he got sick last month and contaminated her because they live together. He had to take 10 days off and felt like shit the whole time, unable to do anything. She kept working because since sh was vaccinated she had very very mild symptoms that didn’t hinder her. Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal, and you don’t even mention what vaccine you got. What I’m considering doing for the next booster is to check how many antigens I still have before deciding if I take the booster when it’s due or wait a bit longer (barring a virulent mutation that would change the decision making). In any case, I’ll take 24–36h of flu like symptoms (without having an actual virus damaging my body) any day over 7–10 days of agony like my friend went through.
- nradov 5y ago
  Which antigens are you referring to? If you mean antibody titers, that doesn't actually tell you much about your immunity level. In practice cellular immunity is more important, but it's not easy to assay. https://peterattiamd.com/covid-part2/ https://peterattiamd.com/covid-part2/
  - ornornor 5y ago
    I was going to leave that up to my doctor because they know much more than I do. What I meant is that I’d want to check how much I need the next booster (or wait if I don’t) before actually getting it.
    - nradov 5y ago
      You're missing the point. You can take your doctor's advice, or not. But that advice will necessarily be generalized based on public health guidelines and not personalized based on any relevant quantitative tests. Your doctor doesn't have access to the assays necessary to accurately measure cellular immunity levels. Those are rather complex and typically only used in small research studies. Antibody levels will always decline over time after infection or vaccination. A third booster might have some long-term benefits for certain patients but beyond that trying to keep those levels elevated with repeated boosters is pointless for most patients.

CoryAlexMartin 5y ago

I was 28 when I got the Johnson and Johnson vaccine last April. I had bad flu-like symptoms for a week, which was followed by 3 months of lethargy, among other things. I can't even begin to imagine how much time I lost from that. Needless to say, I opted not to get a booster.

michaelmrose 5y ago
I'm not aware of anyone having bad flu like symptoms for a week or 3 months of lethargy from J and J. Are you sure you didn't actually get covid? On balance that seems substantially more likely.
- N1H1L 5y ago
  yep - OP got COVID.
  - michaelmrose 5y ago
    This is kind of an example of why relying on personal experience and anecdotes is so bad. OP took intelligent countermeasures to avoid a negative outcome which was unfortunately ineffectual due to mischance. Despite the theory making no sense OP assigned the consequences of covid to the vaccination he received not due to a sound theory but due to proximity in time and will now make measurably worse choices for decades for lack of communicating with a medical professional. We rarely know what we don't know.
    - maskil 5y ago
      What's your sound theory (that it's the result of Covid and not a vaccine with documented side effects that he happened to take the morning of)?
    - CoryAlexMartin 5y ago
      Some degree of caution is warranted on the part of the individual when unwelcome side effects manifest following a drug or vaccine. Doubly so when you can find cases where others have reported the same side effects. https://www.reddit.com/r/CovidVaccinated/comments/nnqm8u/long_term_fatigue_after_vaccine/ https://www.reddit.com/r/CovidVaccinated/comments/nnqm8u/lon... We are also dealing with a novel (and evolving) virus and an even more novel set of vaccines. We're still learning about both. I find it silly that one could possess hubris about their stance on such a matter.
- CoryAlexMartin 5y ago
  I may have misspoke when I said "bad" flu-like symptoms: they were on par with symptoms from the flu, not relatively worse (although, unpleasant), and they were all expected side effects and began the night I got the vaccine. The several months of lethargy accompanied with random pains was the unexpected part. I was quarantining at the time and hadn't gone anywhere except the place where I got the vaccine. It would be ironic if I wound up getting COVID there, which lengthened and intensified my side effects. I hadn't considered that before.
  - Fatnino 5y ago
    The line to get my first covid shot was the largest group of people I had been around for a very long time. Much longer than the lockdown was. It was about an hour of walking back and forth in the switchbacks. Outdoors in the sun. Such is the cost of getting it during the early rush. Second shot was much quicker line, and booster I got a bit late so no line to speak of.
- pxmpxm 5y ago
  For what it's worth, the J&J aftermath experience for me was on par with actually having covid 8 months prior. Having also had omni (apparently getting covid is my superpower) with symptoms on par with a mediocre sore throat, I have absolutely no desire to repeat the vaccine experience.
josephcsible 5y ago
> Needless to say, I opted not to get a booster. You're lucky if opting out is a practical choice for you. For a lot of people now, opting out means being expelled from your school or fired from your job.
- nradov 5y ago
  Santa Clara County has started disciplining workers who don't comply with their booster mandate. (I'm not endorsing punishing workers on that basis, just noting that it is occurring.) https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2022/02/03/santa-clara-county-covid-19-vaccine-booster-deadline-200-workers-disciplined/ https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2022/02/03/santa-clara-cou...
- nathanaldensr 5y ago
  I was placed on unpaid leave by my Fortune 100 employer for not getting the injection despite being 100% remote. I will be fired on March 1.
  - kyriakos 5y ago
    Wow this is ridiculous. I'm not antivaxer and got all 3 shots but I cannot understand this attitude from companies and the legal framework that allows them to act like this. I assume you work in the US?
- pizza234 5y ago
  From the opposite point of view, many people consider themselves lucky that coworkers who decided to opt out are expelled/fired. The focus should be on whether a given imposition has a net positive for society or not, rather than the imposition itself. I actually find it very indicative that the root comment's conclusion is entirely about the ROI for the individual. It's fair to judge that not boosting doesn't have any net positive for society, but that discussion should be the focus.
SOLAR_FIELDS 5y ago
I was 30 when I got COVID in October of 2020. I spent 6 months recovering from the illness with symptoms ranging from myocarditis to Reynauds syndrome. As I type this message, pain erupts in my right lung as I inhale. If I had the vaccine available to me at that time maybe I wouldn’t be experiencing a constant reminder of my illness every time I inhale.
- ensan 5y ago
  1- We’re talking about boosters, not vaccines in general. 2- Sorry you’re unlucky. But even fully vaccinated people there are going to be cases like this. Such is life.
  - Arnt 5y ago
    I think what GP meant to say is "I would've taken that vaccine/booster to reduce the chance of suffering these six months". It's a game of chance. Digressing, some people suffer much more than others from the vaccines, and ditto from the disease. I've wondered whether they're the same. Is it the same unknown factor at work? Does suffering for days from the vaccines mean that you're someone who'd suffer for months from the disease, or even die?
    - nradov 5y ago
      There is no direct correlation between severity of vaccine side effects and level of protection from disease. https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/covid-19-vaccine-if-you-had-no-side-effects-are-you-protected https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/covid-19-vaccine-i...
      - Arnt 5y ago
        That's not what I had in mind, actually. Consider two possibilities, both fairly remote and I have absolutely no reason to believe that they're real. First, suppose that the people who suffer badly from the vaccines/virus do so 100% because of some factor that comes and goes, such as having slept badly. In this case, suffering badly from a vaccine does not mean that you would suffer badly from the disease. Second, suppose that the people who suffer badly do so 100% because of some genetic factor, such as having a single gene for a particular recessive disease. In this case, if you suffer badly from a vaccine it means that you've saved yourself even worse suffering when the disease finally finds you.

enraged_camel 5y ago

You spent 5-6 days over the last year recovering from side effects, but you don't really know what the alternative would have been. You may be healthy and relatively young, but without the vaccine shots you would most likely have had much more severe symptoms.

toolz 5y ago
You're gonna need to provide some citation that young, no comorbidity individuals have "most likely" more severe symptoms when they have 2 doses vs 3.
- airstrike 5y ago
  I think there have been a few studies suggesting vaccine effectiveness declines over time
- michaelmrose 5y ago
  Neutralization of omicron was massively improved by a third shot. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-00214-3 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-00214-3 >Blood from individuals who received one or two doses had little ability to neutralize Omicron. But blood from people who had received a booster dose of an mRNA vaccine fought the variant effectively. Their neutralization capacity against Omicron was only four- to sixfold lower than against the original strain. While younger healthier folks are much less likely to have severe symptoms in the first place there is no reason to believe that what chance they have of experiencing such doesn't decrease further with boosting.
  - toolz 5y ago
    from the study referenced in the article you linked > Finally, the number of hospitalized individuals included was too small to draw definitive conclusions regarding VE[1] and durability of 3 doses in preventing hospitalization. [1] Vaccine Effectiveness effectively this isn't a source that supports the claim that young, no-comorbidity individuals are more likely to get severe disease with 2 doses compared to 3

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vvanders 5y ago

> Given my low risk from the actual virus ... It's not about your risk, it's about transmission to other people that have a much higher risk profile. [edit] Thanks for the downvotes, confirms that people care less about others than experiencing any inconvenience themselves.

christophilus 5y ago
Everyone transmits the virus. The vaccines don’t do much in that regard, though from what I’ve read. They do a good job of preventing severe disease.
- vvanders 5y ago
  Gonna need to cite some sources there. The current recommendation is to get a booster because it both reduces the severity of the disease and the chance of either catching a breakthrough infection or another variant[1]/[2]. [1] https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/effectiveness/why-measure-effectiveness/breakthrough-cases.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/effective... [2] https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#rates-by-vaccine-status https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#rates-by-vaccine-s...
  - christophilus 5y ago
    https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099%2821%2900768-4/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3... I don’t remember where I read it originally, but the lancet is roughly what I recall. It’s not 100% conclusive, but the data seems to point towards roughly the same transmission rate.
    - vvanders 5y ago
      That doesn't track with either the CDC data above, other studies[1] or what we know about other variants. [1] https://mobile.twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1476212140956553222 https://mobile.twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1476212140956553...

Hokusai 5y ago

christophilus 5y ago

40, but same story. I just got over Omicron last week. It was roughly the same experience I had when I got the first Moderna shot. I rarely get the flu, and never get a flu shot for the same reason— the shot guarantees me a week of flu symptoms. At some point, I’ll be far enough along the risk curve to warrant that annual unpleasantness, but I’m not there yet.

micromacrofoot 5y ago
isn’t it possible that your experience with omicron was only similar to the shot reaction because you had some immunity?
- gameswithgo 5y ago
  of course, but he is going to continue to have some immunity for a long time
- dml2135 5y ago
  Certainly possible, but not necessarily. I had covid before the vaccines, and the vaccines were way worse in terms of intensity of discomfort. Covid was still worse in terms of duration. But I won’t be getting a booster more often than maybe 2 years, as this becomes endemic.
  - SOLAR_FIELDS 5y ago
    Since we are doing anecdotal stories, I also had COVID before the vaccines and the disease was far, far, worse than the reactions I got from the shots. And I had rather shitty reactions from the shots as well. My reactions to the shots were about the same as what you described for your shots. I am younger than you and reasonably healthy.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]

ajross 5y ago

Per the article, the ROI is a 2-4x reduction in hospitalization risk vs. a vaccinated-but-unboosted individual. Given that the side effects of the mRNA vaccines have essentially zero hospitalizations[1] and no deaths[2], that seems like a good deal to me. I mean, it's true anecdotally that the immunization is worse that the disease. It was true for my family at least (four Omicron cases, all extremely mild). But it's not true for everyone, and some of those people are going to die. I regret nothing. [1] I haven't seen numbers but haven't heard of any [2] This one is attested.

umvi 5y ago
2-4x reduction doesn't mean anything unless you know the original risk probability. For a low 30s person that isn't obese... The original risk is already probably a tiny number. It's like saying because an anti shark ointment that makes you break out in itchy rashes reduces your risk of getting attacked by a shark by 2-4x, therefore everyone at the beach should use it.
- pxmpxm 5y ago
  Buying 4 lotto tickets quadruples your chance of winning.
- ajross 5y ago
  I'm 50. The original risk, while surely a tiny number, looks rather different to me than it likely does to you.
  - yuliyp 5y ago
    It's "quite different" but still a tiny number even at 50: 0.4 deaths / 100k per week for the entire 50-64 age group (https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#rates-by-vaccine-status https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#rates-by-vaccine-s...): that translates to .02% chance of death per year from COVID while vaccinated at all. To contrast, overall mortality rate for the 45-54 age group per year in the US is just under 400 / 100k = 0.4% (page 27 of https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr70/nvsr70-08-508.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr70/nvsr70-08-508.pdf).

morpheuskafka 5y ago

I am inclined to agree with this. Getting one booster as an extra precaution was one thing (and in my case definitely made sense because my primary series was J&J, which is said should have been two dose to begin with). Getting one every 6-12 months for an indeterminate number of years needs to be based on more than just a general precautionary instinct.

tcbawo 5y ago

I would love to know if anyone has looked at data from identical twins re: vaccine side effects and succeptibility to Covid reactions. It seems like a strong reaction to the vaccine might correlate to a strong viral reaction. Are there any studies that refute or corroborate this?

kyriakos 5y ago
Identical twins rarely have the same immune system, part of the immune system develops with our exposure to pathogens which is unlikely to be the same for both twins.

armchairhacker 5y ago

Yeah but you're almost guaranteed to catch the virus at least once, and even if your symptoms aren't severe, they're likely to be worse had you not been vaccinated. 5-6 days of discomfort from vaccination may have saved you 5-6 days or more of discomfort from covid.

roenxi 5y ago
But presumably now he's had 5-6 days of discomfort, the vaccine antibodies will get flushed out and at some point he's going to get COVID and suffer 5-6 days of discomfort from COVID anyway. These first generation vaccines are a bit harsh which would make sense given that they were rushed through. It is unclear if they are suitable for frequent use given the side effects. COVID isn't going away, everyone's going to catch a couple of varients in the next 60 years assuming they live that long.
- Nextgrid 5y ago
  To the best of our current understanding, the benefit of vaccination doesn't seem binary, so even if antibodies and thus immunity fades over time, it might still be beneficial to fight off a serious, life-threatening infection. The current stats suggest that even though the latest variants are way more infectious and can defeat the vaccine, most deaths still occur within the unvaccinated cohort.

0xB31B1B 5y ago

The main issue IMO is that the original dose schedule of 2 doses 1 month apart is stupid, goes against pretty much all of our first principles understanding of immunology, and was driven by a regulatory need for a short time window for testing/deployment (it’s quicker to test a vaccine w 1 month window than one with 6 month window), not due to science. The optimal dosing schedule is more likely to be once mRNA vaccine and a second one 6 months later. Source: family member is a chief scientist at a few drug discovery startups. Most people will have a durable immune response with the schedule above.

lamontcg 5y ago
No, the second dose greatly increases the efficacy against hospitalization and death in the short term. It wasn't "stupid" or "not due to science". It optimized for maximum vaccine efficacy at around the 5 week timepoint. Canada took a slightly longer dosing schedule to get more people their first doses faster due to having less available doses. But they didn't go with a 6 month interval either, and there's a difficult calculus there where it isn't at all obvious that one choice is "stupid". With Delta slamming into India and a lot of doses available in the USA the short schedule got the bulk of the population as immunized as possible. There's a whole lot of hindsight bias going in trying to claim that was just dumb or unscientific. It probably did save some lives in the summer of 2021 because we did have the doses in this country. Someone who got vaccinated in early April would have only been getting boosted then in early Oct 2021 and that would have been after 75% of the Delta wave had already passed. Second doses clearly needed to be going into arms sooner than 6 months and you can only figure out what timing might have been in optimal in retrospect when you know what the virus was going to do. It is correct that it didn't allow time for the immune response to mature before the boost and that is the rationale for the third shot. And for anyone getting vaccinated now, particularly young people a 6 month schedule of 2 doses may make more sense (although you always have to look at that 6 month interval and do the calculation on what the risk is of getting COVID during that interval -- at this point though presumably a person who isn't vaccinated isn't very concerned about that and probably has already been exposed at some point).
- 0xB31B1B 5y ago

yen223 5y ago

I am also 34 and relatively healthy. When I got my Pfizer booster, I had a mild muscle ache for about half a day, and nothing else.

newsbinator 5y ago
Same here: mild muscle ache for the Pfizer booster. If I didn't know I'd had the booster the previous day, I would have attributed it to falling asleep on a lumpy part of my comforter or something, assuming I'd even noticed it at all. My understanding is the Moderna booster, being a 1.5x dose, often results in stronger side effects that knock a person out more often.
- pinkorchid 5y ago
  The Moderna booster is actually a half dose, although I don't know if it tends to have stronger side effects than the first two full doses. Source: https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/coronavirus-covid-19-update-fda-takes-additional-actions-use-booster-dose-covid-19-vaccines https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/coronavi...
  - newsbinator 5y ago
    It's half the giant Moderna dose (100 mcg / 2 = 50 mcg), and 60% more than the standard/booster Pfizer dose (30 mcg).
- kyriakos 5y ago
  Experience varies among the population. I had no notable side effects for the first 2 Pfizer shots but 3rd one had me in bed for 48 hours.
afarviral 5y ago
Same (pfizer) and this was the typical reaction in friends and family. A couple had minor flu-like symptoms for an afternoon but nothing like some have described here (days of "agony" etc), totally unheard of in my circles.

tunesmith 5y ago

You didn't mention the risk of other people getting it from you. Each shot has lessened that risk considerably. That alone can be worth it - it only takes so many generations (person passing to person) for one person's infection to cause a death in another.

nradov 5y ago
I encourage everyone eligible to protect themselves by getting vaccinated, but that won't stop widespread community transmission. Everyone will be exposed to the virus. https://www.medpagetoday.com/opinion/vinay-prasad/94646 https://www.medpagetoday.com/opinion/vinay-prasad/94646
throwaway932489 5y ago
It's a nice thing to do on the individual level but I don't think it's right to coerce people into the vaccine on this basis. An interesting reversal of this: https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinations/chickenpox-vaccine-questions-answers/ https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinations/chickenpox-vaccin... "Being exposed to chickenpox as an adult (for example, through contact with infected children) boosts your immunity to shingles." "If you vaccinate children against chickenpox, you lose this natural boosting, so immunity in adults will drop and more shingles cases will occur." It's seemingly not the primary justification the vaccine isn't offered, but I wonder if, to cut to the core question, those who are pro/anti vaccinating the low-risk to protect the high-risk feel the same way when it's flipped.
- Eldt 5y ago
  Chickenpox is terrible in adults and is avoided for very good reasons.
- extra88 5y ago
  I don’t think the shingles part is significant. Getting shingles is only common for seniors and there’s a vaccine for it too.

dnissley 5y ago

Same - I put off getting the booster until this past week and even though it's a half dose I still lost a day and a half to it.

jeeeb 5y ago

FWIW. I’m also in my mid-30’s and relatively healthy. I had a mild reaction to vaccination and lost no time to it. I also recently caught COVID. I had severe fever, headache, muscle ache and chills. I still get much more tired after mild exercise, like a long walk, than I did before. Vaccination certainly didn’t stop me from catching COVID but it likely did help me avoid a more severe outcome. I don’t believe in forcing it on others but I would strongly recommend it.

ornornor 5y ago

I had 3x Moderna. The last two shots made me feel like shit for 36h and 24h respectively. It wasn’t fun but ok. A friend of mine, same age, is in a couple where he isn’t vaccinated and she is (Pfizer). Of course he got sick last month and contaminated her because they live together. He had to take 10 days off and felt like shit the whole time, unable to do anything. She kept working because since sh was vaccinated she had very very mild symptoms that didn’t hinder her. Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal, and you don’t even mention what vaccine you got. What I’m considering doing for the next booster is to check how many antigens I still have before deciding if I take the booster when it’s due or wait a bit longer (barring a virulent mutation that would change the decision making). In any case, I’ll take 24–36h of flu like symptoms (without having an actual virus damaging my body) any day over 7–10 days of agony like my friend went through.

nradov 5y ago
Which antigens are you referring to? If you mean antibody titers, that doesn't actually tell you much about your immunity level. In practice cellular immunity is more important, but it's not easy to assay. https://peterattiamd.com/covid-part2/ https://peterattiamd.com/covid-part2/
- ornornor 5y ago
  I was going to leave that up to my doctor because they know much more than I do. What I meant is that I’d want to check how much I need the next booster (or wait if I don’t) before actually getting it.
  - nradov 5y ago
    You're missing the point. You can take your doctor's advice, or not. But that advice will necessarily be generalized based on public health guidelines and not personalized based on any relevant quantitative tests. Your doctor doesn't have access to the assays necessary to accurately measure cellular immunity levels. Those are rather complex and typically only used in small research studies. Antibody levels will always decline over time after infection or vaccination. A third booster might have some long-term benefits for certain patients but beyond that trying to keep those levels elevated with repeated boosters is pointless for most patients.