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This is a rather shallow and naive way of looking at things. Put bluntly, Ukraine is a strategic buffer between Russia and the West, keeping their nukes and ar
by huhtenberg 5y ago
This is a rather shallow and naive way of looking at things.
Put bluntly, Ukraine is a strategic buffer between Russia and the West, keeping their nukes and armed forces at arm's length. Ukraine didn't like this role, it wanted out, but it underestimated how much this would tip the balance. They moved too fast and against a now-pissed former and powerful ally. Hence the result.
That is, there is a pretty good reason for Russia to do all this even if their methods are painfully crude.
- lordleft 5y agoIt's a good reason if you're an autocrat threatened by pro-democracy movements and polities.
- nabla9 5y ago>Ukraine is a strategic buffer between Russia That's what Russians say, but if you stop thinking it, it makes no sense.
- jcranmer 5y agoUkraine is an independent country, and that gives it the right to manage its own foreign policy. Russia is upset that Ukraine, like almost every other post-Soviet country, would rather be in the US/EU sphere of influence than the Russian sphere of influence, but that is Russia's problem, not Ukraine's problem.
- lom 5y agoTo add to this, this is entirely Russia’s fault. Before the invasion of crimea eastern, former soviet countries, were more pro-russia and against the “west”. Obviously nobody likes to interact with someone annexing parts of countries, and displacing many civilians, or even worse. So to nobodies surprise the tides turned and the majority in Ukraine and other countries are now pro joining the Nato.
- ivan_gammel 5y agoUkraine does not manage its membership in NATO or in EU. It is the sovereign right of NATO members to decide on expansion policy and they have no intention currently to offer membership to Ukraine. For some weird reason they are at the same time not ready to commit to that, just because this will look like it's happening due to pressure from Russia. Childish.
- tptacek 5y agoCommit to what? Never letting Ukraine in? That's an unreasonable ask. Meanwhile, they don't have to say anything about letting Ukraine in now: they're demonstrably not.
- ivan_gammel 5y agoWhy on Earth is that unreasonable? Any political arrangement that will serve the needs of the existing members should stay on the table. If from defense perspective non-expansion agreement complemented by arms control treaties is better, then we should take it. Ukraine may still end in a better position in such case.
- tptacek 5y agoYou said it yourself: arrangements shouldn't be taken off the table. They're not going to be in NATO any time soon. A commitment never to allow them in, though, makes no sense other than to placate Russia.
- another_why 5y agoBeing in someones sphere of influence is not independence. And no one is going to give away something they need for free.
- Aeolun 5y agoI really don’t think it matters at this point. The west isn’t going to do anything to Russia directly (e.g. through nukes or armed forces). Whether there’s 1m between the borders or 1000km.
- Gwypaas 5y agoWhy does Ukraine not get to choose their own path?
- another_why 5y agoNo such thing for small countries if you dont plan to turn into North Korea
- Gwypaas 5y agoThe issue here is that Russia does not have that option at hand. If they institute a 100% economic blockade they lose out right because no one else will care.
- another_why 5y agoNo one ever thought about it. Russian billionaires and their children live in EU and get residence in EU countries, what economic blockade?
- Gwypaas 5y agoThat is what I mean. Russia does not have the power to threaten one and therefore has to wield more crude tools to try get the point across. There's no possibility of Ukraine turning into North Korea through sanctions, rather for Russia.
- stickfigure 5y agoWhat rubbish! Let's start with the Ukranians get to decide what goes on in Ukraine. Full stop, Russia is not invited to the decision. That is a nation of independent human beings, not a "buffer zone". The analogy to an abuser claiming ownership of a battered spouse is becoming incredibly apt.
- ivan_gammel 5y agoThey do not decide on NATO or EU membership. They can only decide if the country should apply, but NATO is not obliged to serve them Article 5. Exactly because of that there can be actually a multilateral security agreement between NATO, Ukraine and Russia that could include non-expansion of NATO in exchange for some other, rock solid security guarantees. Same with EU membership: it can be a multilateral trade deal instead between EU, EAEU and Ukraine.
- stickfigure 5y agoMy ex-wife does not get to decide if she dates someone else; she only decides if she can ask. The other man is not obligated to say yes. If you're not a citizen of Ukraine, it's none of your business. Maybe if you didn't keep beating her bloody you'd have a better relationship?
- ivan_gammel 5y agoAs German taxpayer, investor and energy consumer I care a lot where my money go and you should not tell me what is my business.
- stickfigure 5y ago
- ivan_gammel 5y agoI do not think personal attacks have any place on this forum. In any case, your conclusion is rather primitive and lacks any depth. I do not support the idea of expansion of NATO, military help to Ukraine or the idea of imminent war that may soon happen. This however does not mean I’m taking side of aggressor here. It’s just that those ideas are counterproductive and dangerous. They do not help to bring peace. Instead they will cement the Putin‘s rule, enable Ukrainian far right groups to advance further their agenda and make peaceful solution more distant than ever. Americans should really get out of European politics and rely more on judgment of their partners. Their muscle power is no longer desirable way to handle security topics here.
- Azsy 5y agoThis is a rather shallow and naive way of looking at things. Put bluntly, nukes don't matter, and armed forces are only used to suppress societal discontent. Ukraine sees the regressive authoritarianism Putin creates and didn't like how the pie is cut. Putin is throwing a temper tantrum because he's a dinosaur. He can only look back, and on his deathbed he will look back on a Russia that could and should have been much more. There is a reason for his party to do all this, but its fear of facing their own failure birthed in greed and paranoia, and not any military strategy in the face of satellites, drones, and hyper-sonic nukes.
- sto_hristo 5y agoSo if your wife (a buffer between you and loneliness) wants to leave you, you get to beat her up into submission, because she's not free-minded human being that is entitled to her own choices? What a fine Russian president you'll make.
- tzmudzin 5y agoBully‘s insecurities don‘t justify the oppression.