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New research: natural gas appliances emit much more methane than realized
- mrfusion 5y agoIt’s strange we don’t have any clue how much methane we put into the atmosphere. It makes me wonder if we’re overestimating the warming effect of CO2?
- tupac_speedrap 5y agoCan I borrow £200 to read the article please?
- dflock 5y agohttps://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.est.1c04707 https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.est.1c04707
- Syonyk 5y agoNo access to it... However, that's unsurprising. Literally every time someone tries to figure out how much methane there should be based on published leak rates and such, and then goes to measure out there somewhere, they find radically more methane in the air than there "should be." And it's very hard to track back to where it's all coming from. It seems methane leaks from just about everything, and it's far from the "climate savior" it's been made out to be. It's not carbon emissions, it's just far worse over the short term.
- hgomersall 5y agoI remember reading somewhere that much of the emissions blamed on the meat and dairy industry were actually due to the oil industry not being transparent. I may have misremembered or misunderstood, but it all seems very fishy to me.
- colincooke 5y agoThis is the actual paper the article is based on if you want to read more than the token few sentences Nature doesn't put behind a paywall: https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.est.1c04707 https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.est.1c04707
- eb0la 5y agoBut according to the European Union, Natural Gas is a green energy source... I guess burning 100% methane in natural gas without leaks could make it greener, but it is not possible.
- jcranberry 5y agoThis has been out for a while now. It's paywalled but I recognize the half-a-million cars figure. The passive leakages from stoves and the infrastructure right?
- jeffbee 5y agoYou know what else emits the CO2 of half a million cars? Half a million cars, and there are 580 halfs of millions of cars in the U.S. alone. Caring about the greenhouse impact of gas appliances is like profiling your computer system and then trying to optimize the thing at the bottom of the list.
- SketchySeaBeast 5y agoIsn't the assumption that you're working in serial? Given that this work can be done in parallel and many areas will take a long time, why not work on as many as possible?
- jeffbee 5y agoThe public's attention and cognitive powers are finite, so it is best to not confuse the issues. The front and center message about climate change to the public and to regulatory agencies needs to be "cars".
- nomel 5y ago> The public's attention and cognitive powers are finite The amount of money they, and the state, can spend, pursuing these things, is also finite.
- matheusmoreira 5y agoWe are working in serial. There is limited public attention, government budget and political capital available to regulate these industries. This creates significant opportunity cost. In order to actually change the world, we need to spend all our efforts stopping the biggest polluters such as chinese industry and fossil fuels. Worrying about smaller problems such as methane or cryptocurrency is a waste of time at best and a malicious distraction at worst.
- colincooke 5y agoOn a related note, gas appliances have pretty substanial adverse health effects: https://mobile.twitter.com/curious_founder/status/1481746460378992641 https://mobile.twitter.com/curious_founder/status/1481746460... Even if I wasn't against fossil fuel based appliances in principle, this was enough to make me actively worry about living in a house with a gas stove.
- throwawayboise 5y agoI imagine it's better than the coal and wood stoves that previous generations used. I have gas appliances and would not trade them for anything.
- colincooke 5y agoTotally agree better than coal, and to each their own on your personal risk tolerance. Although if it's the heat control/speed of gas that you love maybe look into induction? I've heard great things and thats what I plan on using (coil stoves are just not very good) once I buy a stove (currently a renter).
- Baeocystin 5y agoInduction is great, compared to resistive coil. Even the good ones don't come close to the control and accuracy of a flame. Unfortunately.
- hgomersall 5y agoThat's not my experience. The dynamic range of our induction hob is phenomenal. We can boil water faster than anything else, and the low mode is just excellent for very low temperatures (you can leave it on just to stay warm). I just wish the buttons worked better!
- Baeocystin 5y agoI have yet to come across an induction unit that handles low temp settings well- even the best ones I've tried use low-frequency PWM to approximate lower temperatures, and you need to have enough thermal mass in your pan to smooth it out that rapid adjustments aren't possible in the way that with using gas is. If you can recommend a specific model, I'd like to take a look at it.
- karmasimida 5y agoWho sponsored the research, can we do a background check?
- DonnyV 5y agoThis is one of those BS articles to turn a systemic and government issue and break it down to a personal responsibility issue. So that the powers that be don't have to do anything. 70% of climate pollution comes from US Military and Cargo ships. How about we start there.
- jjt-yn_t 5y ago
- yoavm 5y agoTruly interested in the source for that 70% number.
- DonnyV 5y agohttps://earth.org/us-military-pollution/ https://earth.org/us-military-pollution/ https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2017/jul/10/100-fossil-fuel-companies-investors-responsible-71-global-emissions-cdp-study-climate-change https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2017/jul/10...
- yoavm 5y agoThese articles definitely aren't saying that the US military and cargo ships account for 70% of all climate pollution. If my math is right, the US military is closer to 0.01% of all carbon emissions.
- Gigachad 5y agoIts targeting government. NYC recently banned natural gas connections to new buildings. This kind of research will help other governments justify the change.
- asow92 5y agoIt's also about general safety in NYC. There have been a many deadly accidents over the years. Whole buildings have gone up in flames: https://ny.eater.com/2020/1/21/21070310/pommes-frites-east-village-explosion-landlord-prison https://ny.eater.com/2020/1/21/21070310/pommes-frites-east-v... Ironically, this accident happened because someone was installing gas illegally. Prohibition can cause as much harm as it alleviates.
- asow92 5y agoI much prefer cooking on my gas stove, thank you.
- Dumblydorr 5y agoWhy? I've cooked on all different sorts of heating sources and haven't noticed a big enough difference to justify health and climate issues. If cooking is the application of heat to food, a skillful chef should be able to use a variety of heat sources, no?
- asow92 5y agoI just like it more.
- exhilaration 5y agoDid you grow up with gas stoves? I did as well and really can't imagine using anything else. But I've got friends from the Midwest, where natural gas lines are less common that grew up with electric stoves, and they tell them they can't imagine cooking with anything other than electric -- the open flames on gas stoves actually scare them.
- asow92 5y agoGrew up with electric and much prefer using gas ranges now that I have the choice. I just prefer gas stoves and I don't think that the article or discussions in this thread are going to dissuade me from that. Also, my baseboard _and_ steam boiler in my house (old and new additions to the house) also use gas; it would be very expensive to shift and I have a feeling that I never will short of needing to do so. Gas is very common here in upstate New York.
- matheusmoreira 5y ago> they can't imagine cooking with anything other than electric -- the open flames on gas stoves actually scare them In my country, electric showers are common. The water is in direct contact with an electrical resistance. I've seen people from other countries calling these things "suicide showers" but nobody here bats an eye.
- tims33 5y agoIt is kind of amazing how often the "next big thing" turns out to be less than promised. Natural Gas was supposed to be this great transition away from coal and heating oil and it seems like it has nearly as many issues.
- anonporridge 5y agoShockingly, burning stuff in millions of micro scale instances is drastically less efficient and polluting than burning it all in one big, hyper efficient well managed place and converting it into electricity. Who knew?
- clusterfish 5y agoNatural gas as a source of energy is a lot less clean than advertised, almost as bad as coal, even without gas stoves, (due to fugitive methane emissions, yes, but not in your home)
- stjohnswarts 5y agoIt burns far cleaner than coal and puts out half as much CO2. Have you ever stood next to a coal fire in real life?
- clusterfish 5y agoFFS read about it. It burns clean at use site but causes tons of largely unmeasured methane emissions at extraction site, to the point where it's 50%-70% as bad as coal. Except it's worse because clueless people think it's great so they're building even more gas plants which will work for decades to come, whereas coal at least is being shut down.
- Spooky23 5y agoSee the story on the front page earlier today about leaking gas pipelines.
- smm11 5y agoFirst, I freeking love cooking with our gas stove. It's got zero electronics, and is simply a half-dozen gas valves that output like a blast furnace. I've no doubt it's a danger to me and everyone else on earth, but what isn't? And I don't like this push to offload all the industrial methane output blame to me, and others like me. My nearest landfill likely outputs more methane daily, than I will in a lifetime. Blame all of us, though.
- wikibob 5y agoModern induction provides a superior cooking experience to gas. The metal of the cookware is heated directly via the energy field. Yes there are many risks in modern life, some are longer term and less directly linked. Gas stoves are directly linked to health outcomes and switching away can result in immediate personal benefit.
- endisneigh 5y agoSwitching requires money. I hate when people say these things as if renovating is free. Most forms of cooking other then perhaps boiling in general release needless emissions.
- Gigachad 5y agoThe first step is governments banning gas for new builds like NYC has. And then offering interest free loans or other incentives to get rid of existing connections.
- stjohnswarts 5y agoI wouldn't count on NYC government choices being popular all over the USA...
- asow92 5y agoAs someone who has lived in middle America and NYC, so much yes. Many in both are just as sure that their way is the superior one.
- endisneigh 5y agoWhat an disingenuous article. Yes natural gas appliances help to cook the climate. Farting also releases methane and helps cook the climate. Can we focus on the real issues. USA natural gas kitchen appliances aren’t the main contributor to climate change. I’d be surprised if it’s even in the top 1000 issues. You might say you can work on multiple issues - sure, but people only have so much time to research on issues and so much attention to spare. Furthermore who is going to fund all of this conversion to induction? Whose going to require the tens of millions of homes to high gauge and high voltage wiring? /rant
- bayindirh 5y agoInduction or electric stoves doesn't need high gauge, insane current wiring to work. In EU, You can power one from a 220V/16A fuse, and you don't even need to dedicate that circuit to it. Mine is connected to a bog standard wall outlet (It came with a plug).
- endisneigh 5y agoYou cannot replace a gas oven and 5 burner stove as shown in the paper with a 16A induction stove. Furthermore the oven you use will likely be resistive and inefficient, likely being derived from dirtier energy like coal. Or ironically also from natural gas to begin with.
- bayindirh 5y agoYou can get a set or get them independently. Bosch is recommending 16A even for sets for ~20 years (we had one?). Both ovens we have (the older and the newer ones) are hidden element, isolated units which spend most of their time off after reaching to the desired temperature, and they're not burning through energy all the time. And the ceramic coating inside them are self cleaning with the cooking heat too. You can't guarantee renewables everywhere, can you?
- endisneigh 5y agoPerhaps that’s true but USA wiring is 120V /15A per breaker without rewiring so your point isn’t really relevant. Older houses might even be 110V and not have dedicated circuits in the kitchen. Not sure why you even brought up anywhere that’s not the US when the paper is talking specifically about US kitchens
- nieve 5y agoArchive link to avoid the paywall: https://archive.is/GLFEF https://archive.is/GLFEF
- jacknews 5y agoRunning pipes of flammable gas to people's homes does look a little out of place in 2022.