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> What's the connection between my perspective and my body? Your body is doing the experiencing. It is what's perceiving. Your mind is just your body's UI for

> What's the connection between my perspective and my body? Your body is doing the experiencing. It is what's perceiving. Your mind is just your body's UI for the world and your body is the user.

zubspace 5y ago
The interesting bit is not the sensory input. We mostly know how the sensors work and how they are triggered. The fun question is, what exactly is connected to those sensors and experiences them and where is the location of that thing? It's like we're sitting with a VR headset in our brain, playing that game we call life. But, where exactly are we and how is that headset connected to our sensors?
- guerrilla 5y ago
  > The fun question is, what exactly is connected to those sensors and experiences them and where is the location of that thing? Again, your body. Think about it. Your body is experiencing what your brain has generated out of your sensory input. You don't need a homunculus, you are a body. You are your body and there's nothing else to you.
  - pessimizer 5y ago
    For me it's worse. I don't think theres any reason to identify my perspective with any homunculus. It's watching somebody play a game, not playing it. My question is this: I "know" there are a lot of games being played - why am I watching this one?
    - guerrilla 5y ago
      It's the one your body generated. Your body took all its data, generated your mind out of that and experiences your mind. For anything else to happen, you'd have to pipe the signal of your mind (that your body generated) into someone else's brain. It's like you're asking why is this computer that I generated this data visualization from this data on this computer displaying this data visualization on this computer. Umm, because that's what you asked it to do and that's the default? For anything else to have happened, you would have had to redirect the output to a network and then go receive it on a different computer.
      - pessimizer 5y ago
        What does it mean for a body to be "mine?" As a materialist, I accept that my body is an assemblage of physical influences. I have no reason to doubt that it has as much self-control as water flowing down a hill. So - does water flowing down a hill have a perspective? Where is it located? It doesn't have a nervous system to blame things on. Is it infinitely divisible? Is it distinct from me? If I pour water from one cup into another, can I say that I'm any less the water as I am my hands, even though I'm controlling the water, getting feedback from the water, subjecting the water as much to my nervous system as I am subjecting my hand itself? What about when I shake your hand? What if I'm blind and I ask you what you can see, then react based on that?
        guerrilla 5y ago
        Don't gish gallop. > What does it mean for a body to be "mine?" You are your body. > So - does water flowing down a hill have a perspective? Where is it located? Why would it? Does it sense and produce a mind? Not that I'm aware of. You could go the pansychism route if you want though. See David Chalmers or something. > can I say that I'm any less the water as I am my hands, even though I'm controlling the water, getting feedback from the water, subjecting the water as much to my nervous system as I am subjecting my hand itself? According to enactivism, no. [1] In general, see embodied minds theory. [2] 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enactivism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enactivism 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embodied_cognition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embodied_cognition
        pessimizer 5y ago
        I'm not intending to. I wasn't proposing all of that as separable questions. I was proposing it as a series of statements that I have no material means to say anything about. > Why would it? Does it sense and produce a mind? I don't know what a mind is supposed to be in this context, or its importance. I don't identify my perspective with my thoughts. My thoughts are something a body does. My perspective is just my location. After death, my thoughts will cease. My location will not change.
shrimp_emoji 5y ago
And then step into the Star Trek transporter. :) You're obliterated, then perfectly reassembled on the other side. Is that still "you", "subjectively"? Should you or others even care about that question? And, if not, damn, that's ego-killing af.
- guerrilla 5y ago
  My answer is yes but it depends on your theory of identity. Unless you're positing a soul or something though, your answer is probably going to have to be yes.
- pessimizer 5y ago
  Or even without transporters: what evidence do I have that the me that ended this sentence is the same me that began it? If anything, I have material evidence that it isn't.
  - guerrilla 5y ago
    Yeah, you need a theory of identity to answer your questions, first year philosophy sutff [1]. 1. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/identity-personal/ https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/identity-personal/
    - pessimizer 5y ago
      Exactly. But having a theory of identity is just a declaration that you subscribe to one, not anything meaningful.
      - guerrilla 5y ago
        Umm, no. Having a theory of identity allows you to deduce the answers to your questions.
        pessimizer 5y ago
        Based on an arbitrary choice. I can deduce as many answers to my questions as theories of identity that I can count. None of them will give me any insight into the question of subjectivity.
pessimizer 5y ago
I understand that. It's my body that's doing the thinking, and my body that's typing this comment. The question is why there's some sort of proximity that I have with my comment that I don't have to yours.
- guerrilla 5y ago
  I can't conceive of how there couldn't be. Your body gets sensory input, generates your mind and then your body experiences your mind. How could that possibly be dislocated from your body... The very idea is nonsense.
  - pessimizer 5y ago
    But this is dualism. I don't accept a difference between mind and body as a materialist. edit: I can use a computer to remind me to use a computer to remind me about something. I can lose the use of my hands and eyes by severing biological wires. I can't pinpoint a distinction between me and the computer. I can't pinpoint a distinction between me and you, other than distance and mechanical connection (which we currently have, with some latency and signal distortion.)
    - guerrilla 5y ago
      > But this is dualism No, you cannot deduce dualism from what I said. You filled in assumptions that aren't present and which I don't assert. It's just physicalism (materialism is an outdated term[1]) but would also work for neutral monism[2]. > I can't pinpoint a distinction between me and the computer. I can't pinpoint a distinction between me and you, other than distance and mechanical connection (which we currently have, with some latency and signal distortion.) What? Maybe you need a psychiatrist now? This sounds like dpersonalization or derealization. 1. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/physicalism/ https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/physicalism/ 2. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/neutral-monism/ https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/neutral-monism/
      - pessimizer 5y ago

> What's the connection between my perspective and my body? Your body is doing the experiencing. It is what's perceiving. Your mind is just your body's UI for the world and your body is the user.

zubspace 5y ago

The interesting bit is not the sensory input. We mostly know how the sensors work and how they are triggered. The fun question is, what exactly is connected to those sensors and experiences them and where is the location of that thing? It's like we're sitting with a VR headset in our brain, playing that game we call life. But, where exactly are we and how is that headset connected to our sensors?

guerrilla 5y ago
> The fun question is, what exactly is connected to those sensors and experiences them and where is the location of that thing? Again, your body. Think about it. Your body is experiencing what your brain has generated out of your sensory input. You don't need a homunculus, you are a body. You are your body and there's nothing else to you.
- pessimizer 5y ago
  For me it's worse. I don't think theres any reason to identify my perspective with any homunculus. It's watching somebody play a game, not playing it. My question is this: I "know" there are a lot of games being played - why am I watching this one?
  - guerrilla 5y ago
    It's the one your body generated. Your body took all its data, generated your mind out of that and experiences your mind. For anything else to happen, you'd have to pipe the signal of your mind (that your body generated) into someone else's brain. It's like you're asking why is this computer that I generated this data visualization from this data on this computer displaying this data visualization on this computer. Umm, because that's what you asked it to do and that's the default? For anything else to have happened, you would have had to redirect the output to a network and then go receive it on a different computer.
    - pessimizer 5y ago
      What does it mean for a body to be "mine?" As a materialist, I accept that my body is an assemblage of physical influences. I have no reason to doubt that it has as much self-control as water flowing down a hill. So - does water flowing down a hill have a perspective? Where is it located? It doesn't have a nervous system to blame things on. Is it infinitely divisible? Is it distinct from me? If I pour water from one cup into another, can I say that I'm any less the water as I am my hands, even though I'm controlling the water, getting feedback from the water, subjecting the water as much to my nervous system as I am subjecting my hand itself? What about when I shake your hand? What if I'm blind and I ask you what you can see, then react based on that?
      - guerrilla 5y ago
        Don't gish gallop. > What does it mean for a body to be "mine?" You are your body. > So - does water flowing down a hill have a perspective? Where is it located? Why would it? Does it sense and produce a mind? Not that I'm aware of. You could go the pansychism route if you want though. See David Chalmers or something. > can I say that I'm any less the water as I am my hands, even though I'm controlling the water, getting feedback from the water, subjecting the water as much to my nervous system as I am subjecting my hand itself? According to enactivism, no. [1] In general, see embodied minds theory. [2] 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enactivism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enactivism 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embodied_cognition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embodied_cognition
        pessimizer 5y ago
        I'm not intending to. I wasn't proposing all of that as separable questions. I was proposing it as a series of statements that I have no material means to say anything about. > Why would it? Does it sense and produce a mind? I don't know what a mind is supposed to be in this context, or its importance. I don't identify my perspective with my thoughts. My thoughts are something a body does. My perspective is just my location. After death, my thoughts will cease. My location will not change.

shrimp_emoji 5y ago

And then step into the Star Trek transporter. :) You're obliterated, then perfectly reassembled on the other side. Is that still "you", "subjectively"? Should you or others even care about that question? And, if not, damn, that's ego-killing af.

guerrilla 5y ago
My answer is yes but it depends on your theory of identity. Unless you're positing a soul or something though, your answer is probably going to have to be yes.
pessimizer 5y ago
Or even without transporters: what evidence do I have that the me that ended this sentence is the same me that began it? If anything, I have material evidence that it isn't.
- guerrilla 5y ago
  Yeah, you need a theory of identity to answer your questions, first year philosophy sutff [1]. 1. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/identity-personal/ https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/identity-personal/
  - pessimizer 5y ago
    Exactly. But having a theory of identity is just a declaration that you subscribe to one, not anything meaningful.
    - guerrilla 5y ago
      Umm, no. Having a theory of identity allows you to deduce the answers to your questions.
      - pessimizer 5y ago
        Based on an arbitrary choice. I can deduce as many answers to my questions as theories of identity that I can count. None of them will give me any insight into the question of subjectivity.

pessimizer 5y ago

I understand that. It's my body that's doing the thinking, and my body that's typing this comment. The question is why there's some sort of proximity that I have with my comment that I don't have to yours.

guerrilla 5y ago
I can't conceive of how there couldn't be. Your body gets sensory input, generates your mind and then your body experiences your mind. How could that possibly be dislocated from your body... The very idea is nonsense.
- pessimizer 5y ago
  But this is dualism. I don't accept a difference between mind and body as a materialist. edit: I can use a computer to remind me to use a computer to remind me about something. I can lose the use of my hands and eyes by severing biological wires. I can't pinpoint a distinction between me and the computer. I can't pinpoint a distinction between me and you, other than distance and mechanical connection (which we currently have, with some latency and signal distortion.)
  - guerrilla 5y ago
    > But this is dualism No, you cannot deduce dualism from what I said. You filled in assumptions that aren't present and which I don't assert. It's just physicalism (materialism is an outdated term[1]) but would also work for neutral monism[2]. > I can't pinpoint a distinction between me and the computer. I can't pinpoint a distinction between me and you, other than distance and mechanical connection (which we currently have, with some latency and signal distortion.) What? Maybe you need a psychiatrist now? This sounds like dpersonalization or derealization. 1. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/physicalism/ https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/physicalism/ 2. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/neutral-monism/ https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/neutral-monism/
    - pessimizer 5y ago