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I was lucky enough to experience a 2 year long project in which everything that went wrong was blamed on the developers. Project managers breathing down your ne

I was lucky enough to experience a 2 year long project in which everything that went wrong was blamed on the developers. Project managers breathing down your neck, feeling so pressured you barely dare take a bathroom break, the whole shebang. Quit working for them and now I'm a freelance dev. They asked me to get back on the project and I said fine, that'll be €700/day. After some grumbling they realized they had no other option so they agreed. The project is still failing due to bad management but I no longer care. I believe to now feel the same sense of calm around chaos and failure like you do. A lot of developers have real mental scars from bad projects like this, because they get duped into thinking it's a matter of personal pride to see it trough. It's not. Your primary concern should always be personal health.

hughrr 5y ago
Spot on. Another relative point to note is that I learned pride should be ranked well below dignity.
urthor 5y ago
700 a day??? Why did you undercharge by so much. I know the EU dev market isn't great but those are rookie numbers for "danger money." Three of the "retired, then handed enough money to unretire" COBAL guys at my old place were doing 2500 a day.
- sandos 5y ago
  Well, cobol is special of course. The more specialized you are... But for a generic c++, java or c# or web dev I would say you can't charge specialist money at all in the EU.
  - urthor 5y ago
    Well it's a negotiation. Those guys succeeded at asking for 2500, but you would start at a number they are guaranteed to say no to, and work your way down. Like the going rate for a senior here is 900, and a good senior is 1200+. So your starting offer would be at least 1800, probably 2000s to round it up. Which is the high end of your zone of possible agreement (900-1200) plus 50% for danger money, plus a few hundred to round it up to 2k. Then you see what happens when you throw out the big number.
    - xvector 5y ago
      This, always throw out a big number. Sometimes they'll just bite and not negotiate (or barely negotiate) down.
- mattbee 5y ago
  I know! I did a sharp I take of breath at that number too!
- Jolter 5y ago
  Where do you live that 700€ a DAY is low pay? It’s, that’s MORE than 700$ a day, not less. Consider that most parts of the world have lower cost of living than the Bay Area.
  - tibbetts 5y ago
    I prefer to be paid based on how valuable my work is to the employer, not the cost of living wherever I happen to be or even my personal financial needs.
    - Jolter 5y ago
      Sure, so do I, but when I tell my manager I'm worth X amount, he'll say that's just not where local salaries are at for my job category and responsibility. Implying that other developers in my area are available for less than I ask. I mean, if a person is able to extract 700€ per day, kudos to them but that's still above the 90th percentile of senior developers in Europe.
      - tomrod 5y ago
        > Implying that other developers in my area are available for less than I ask. They can attempt to prove it.
        User23 5y ago
        I had a buddy do exactly that. His manager told him he was already paid above market. Inside a month he showed her that she was wrong and we had a gaping hole to fill in the team.
      - taneq 5y ago
        What do other companies say? "Nah you're not" is a pretty standard response to "I'm worth more than this" but consider the source. For some reason many companies would far rather let a good employee leave than raise their pay to market rate.
  - 5y ago
- Fiahil 5y ago
  I second this, I know some French freelancers billing 3500 EUR per day for high-level, customer-facing, devops work. The least you could do for "danger money" is 1200 EUR a day (and limit yourself to 4 days a week, but that's another story).
- nickkell 5y ago
  Especially if they were contacted directly and not having to pay an additional cut to a recruiter/agency
- arendtio 5y ago
  It depends on the country/region. In eastern Europe 700€ is okay, in western Europe it is rather cheap.
rehash3 5y ago
Amazon's orientation and internal culture is structured to make one think that it is a matter of personal pride and worth and if you do not align you are worthless.. it is a mind F** for fresh college hires.. I like to think Amazon is the tech industries' Pedo***..

hughrr 5y ago

Spot on. Another relative point to note is that I learned pride should be ranked well below dignity.

urthor 5y ago

700 a day??? Why did you undercharge by so much. I know the EU dev market isn't great but those are rookie numbers for "danger money." Three of the "retired, then handed enough money to unretire" COBAL guys at my old place were doing 2500 a day.

sandos 5y ago
Well, cobol is special of course. The more specialized you are... But for a generic c++, java or c# or web dev I would say you can't charge specialist money at all in the EU.
- urthor 5y ago
  Well it's a negotiation. Those guys succeeded at asking for 2500, but you would start at a number they are guaranteed to say no to, and work your way down. Like the going rate for a senior here is 900, and a good senior is 1200+. So your starting offer would be at least 1800, probably 2000s to round it up. Which is the high end of your zone of possible agreement (900-1200) plus 50% for danger money, plus a few hundred to round it up to 2k. Then you see what happens when you throw out the big number.
  - xvector 5y ago
    This, always throw out a big number. Sometimes they'll just bite and not negotiate (or barely negotiate) down.
mattbee 5y ago
I know! I did a sharp I take of breath at that number too!
Jolter 5y ago
Where do you live that 700€ a DAY is low pay? It’s, that’s MORE than 700$ a day, not less. Consider that most parts of the world have lower cost of living than the Bay Area.
- tibbetts 5y ago
  I prefer to be paid based on how valuable my work is to the employer, not the cost of living wherever I happen to be or even my personal financial needs.
  - Jolter 5y ago
    Sure, so do I, but when I tell my manager I'm worth X amount, he'll say that's just not where local salaries are at for my job category and responsibility. Implying that other developers in my area are available for less than I ask. I mean, if a person is able to extract 700€ per day, kudos to them but that's still above the 90th percentile of senior developers in Europe.
    - tomrod 5y ago
      > Implying that other developers in my area are available for less than I ask. They can attempt to prove it.
      - User23 5y ago
        I had a buddy do exactly that. His manager told him he was already paid above market. Inside a month he showed her that she was wrong and we had a gaping hole to fill in the team.
    - taneq 5y ago
      What do other companies say? "Nah you're not" is a pretty standard response to "I'm worth more than this" but consider the source. For some reason many companies would far rather let a good employee leave than raise their pay to market rate.
- 5y ago
Fiahil 5y ago
I second this, I know some French freelancers billing 3500 EUR per day for high-level, customer-facing, devops work. The least you could do for "danger money" is 1200 EUR a day (and limit yourself to 4 days a week, but that's another story).
nickkell 5y ago
Especially if they were contacted directly and not having to pay an additional cut to a recruiter/agency
arendtio 5y ago
It depends on the country/region. In eastern Europe 700€ is okay, in western Europe it is rather cheap.

rehash3 5y ago

Amazon's orientation and internal culture is structured to make one think that it is a matter of personal pride and worth and if you do not align you are worthless.. it is a mind F** for fresh college hires.. I like to think Amazon is the tech industries' Pedo***..