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I have an app in the App Store and pay 15% commissions, since we are below 1 mn USD in sales. In exchange, I can roll-out my app in 175 countries and have not d
by baxtr 5y ago
I have an app in the App Store and pay 15% commissions, since we are below 1 mn USD in sales. In exchange, I can roll-out my app in 175 countries and have not deal with local authorities re taxes etc.
For me, that's a pretty good deal. I could never do this on my own. Any other provider would probably take the same cut for that kind of service.
- madeofpalk 5y ago> Any other provider would probably take the same cut for that kind of service. Too bad we'll never know because Apple prevents the competition on their platform!
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- baxtr 5y agoThat's an easy one. Let's look at the other big ecosystem Android. There we have a couple of alternate stores like Amazon's. They take 30% as well? I am not sure why it should be different with Apple. Maybe, just maybe, running a well-curated app store is just something that is expensive.
- disgruntledphd2 5y agoNah, it's because Apple and Google are a cartel with respect to app fees. Like, 30% is a crazy amount to take, at the scale they operate at.
- tsimionescu 5y ago> Maybe, just maybe, running a well-curated app store is just something that is expensive. Are you trying to claim that Apple and Google are each running a "well curated" app store?
- ambicapter 5y agoI'll bite, show me an example of a "well curated" app store to your standards.
- Apocryphon 5y agoF-Droid is right there. They're niche, but that further underscores that even a group of open source volunteers can maintain a well-curated app store.
- abletonlive 5y agoThere's like less than 10,000 apps on that store. You're comparing apples to oranges.
- Apocryphon 5y agoComparing apples to pomegranate seeds, surely. But perhaps that's the point. If third party app stores were allowed, they needn't all be shoddy wannabe Apple App Stores run by rival tech giants trying to publish as many apps willy-nilly to cut into Apple's market. Instead, perhaps there could be many boutique curated app stores, some non-profit even, that aim to cater to specific user experiences. The benefit is that it could be a solution for the app discovery issues that currently come from having a single App Store with a single search interface. Users with specialized interests or needs can subscribe to smaller third party app stores as they see fit. There would be competition in app discovery. More customization in user experiences. Variety in editorial control. It's a bit akin to reversing the current state of the web where giant closed sites such as Facebook or Google are single-entry points, and going back to the past where there were web communities and webrings. A Neocities for apps would be neat.
- bsagdiyev 5y agoDefinitely not the App Store with all the trash and scam apps allowed.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- shkkmo 5y agoAndroid has several free stores, inclusing ones that support open source software.
- searchableguy 5y agoAndroid has plenty of free stores and with v12, those stores can also update apps automatically. It's going in the great direction. I use 3 different stores on my phone for example. Of course, an average person doesn't need that many. I use fdroid for sensitive apps (I can verify an app build there compared to playstore) and some developers provide apps without google services framework on froid as an alternative to their playstore version.
- vorpalhex 5y agoF-droid is free. Is f-droid magic? The Kindle store doesn't take 30%.
- viktorcode 5y agoHas nothing to do with the costs. 30% is the de-facto default revenue sharing scheme, and developers are well accustomed to it.
- dragonwriter 5y ago> Has nothing to do with the costs A price that has nothing to do with costs is a monopoly rent; in a competitive market marginal prices are driven down to marginal economic costs by competition.
- viktorcode 5y agoOn the contrary. In case of a monopoly price is guaranteed to cover the costs. In a competitive market the price can be well below the costs. Case in point: Epic games store. They are burning money to carve out a market share. That's an example of price decoupled from the cost.
- vkou 5y agoHow much revenue do you earn in the lower 170 of those countries, and does it exceed 15%/30%? of the revenue you earn in the upper 5?
- samwillis 5y agoThere is a massive difference between 15% and 30%. The latter could never be justified, I think the former probably could be with the services that Apple offer as a vendor (particularly for small businesses). But it still feels too high. The 27% in the article is just mad, I think they could justify 10% when not using their payments, maybe. But it would be better to have an opt out where there is a set rate for app approval (this could easily be hundreds of dollars) and a download cost for app/data delivery and storage.
- jacquesm 5y agoPSPs typically charge between 1 and 5% depending on the amounts, the kind of transaction and the risks involved.
- samwillis 5y agoQuite right, however I do think Apple offer slightly more than just payment processing. If we say transaction costs are 3%, do I think apple can justify an additional 26%? No. Do I think they can justify 12% for the validating of apps, providing marketing tools in the App Store, data storage and distribution? Maybe yes, it still feels a little high. It's why I would like to see it broken down as line items and for them to make it optional to just pay the costs of each service directly rather than them charging a % cut.
- jacquesm 5y agoIf it would be valuable enough then people would not be trying to avoid this particular part of their service.
- samwillis 5y agoTrue, and I fully support the push back against the fees. Hopefully they will end up lowering them to a point where everyone is happy.
- schmorptron 5y ago
- thathndude 5y agoThis whole fight is a bunch of billionaires slinging mud at each other and trying to win over the court of public opinion, which is largely not affected. The drop to 15% took too long. But it’s here now. If the Epics of the world want to enlist/manipulate the suffering of the “little guy,” they really can’t anymore.
- sofixa 5y ago> The drop to 15% took too long. But it’s here now Only thanks to the Epics of this world.
- thathndude 5y agoMaybe so. But it wasn’t due to developers leaving or putting market pressure on Apple. If developers feel so cheated and abused by Apple why not go to the US majority platform of Android? They don’t because Apple presents them tremendous value. They just want more of the pie. Nothing wrong with that. But let’s call it what it is.
- sofixa 5y agoThere's also a big power disbalance - a developer complaining about Apple's policies and rent seeking is completely at their mercy and mind find their account and apps blocked for "violating their ToS" or some other reason. Yes, the Apple platform is vastly more profitable for developers because most Apple customers are accustomed to spending money ( as opposed to the Android market which includes everything from $/€ 100 headsets from obscure brands like Wiko to $/€ 2k premium Samsung or whatever devices - the latter might be okay on dropping $/€ 10 on app, the former certainly wouldn't).
- NicoJuicy 5y agoStripe does taxes and is way cheaper. 10% of apple's fee or smthg
- mrtksn 5y ago"Does tax" is a bit too broad: https://stripe.com/docs/tax/registering https://stripe.com/docs/tax/registering They help you collect taxes but they don't manage the tax payment processes. You will still need to create a company in France or register for VAT in France, understand the French accounting and laws, them pay the French taxes if you sell to people in France, for example. It's also only 35 countries. No match for what Apple does.
- HatchedLake721 5y agoStripe doesn't do taxes. Only recently they added ability to calculate how much tax you legally need to charge in some jurisdictions. Filing the right taxes in those countries is still your responsibility.
- jacquesm 5y agoAt your level that makes sense. But if you were more successful there would come a point at which you would be better off to process your payments yourself and you should be free to do so. Because then you would be doing all the work rather than Apple. Apple is not a government, they should not be able or allowed to levy taxes.
- baxtr 5y agoHow do you think big apps started?
- jacquesm 5y agoThat is not the kind of argument that works in an anti-competitive setting. The fact that I went to your school does not give you a right to a chunk of my lifelong income, the fact that you once sold me a tool doesn't either and so on. If there is no performance there is no right to invoice. The only entities that can do that legally are called governments, which - incidentally - Apple is doing their damnest to not pay taxes.
- baxtr 5y agoOf course it does, when you get big by visiting my school and knowing this before. It is just absolutely ludicrous to get big on the back of a giant and then to start complaining. Just get big without it that is what you wish. Re tax evasion: EVERY mid-sized company in Europe that I have worked for has elaborate tax evasions schemes in place, mainly by having other entities in countries like Luxembourg. It's the fact that the EU tolerates places like Luxembourg an Ireland that this happens. No one talks about it because it's just better for headline to go for the big Californian names.
- jacquesm 5y agoWell, I hope you pay your mom 30% of your income then because you got big on the back of her work. Seriously though, how you get started is immaterial, you should be free to change service providers, especially service providers that are price gouging you when you feel that you can no longer justify their cut. As for the tax avoidance (not evasion, that's an important distinction here), yes all the big guys do it, but that does not make it right and if Apple were to actually pay their taxes I would see that as them at least understanding the pain of having to pay a good chunk of your income every year. I pay my taxes and contribute to my community through them, Apple siphons off a very large chunk of the worlds wealth into the pockets of a very small number of shareholders and now wants to argue that they have an unassailable claim to 30% of the income of other companies. And I strongly disagree with that. If they charged between 1 and 5% for their service that would be fine by me, but it would still not give them an automatic right to this fee, they would have to compete with everybody else. Anti competitive behavior has one clear and common thread running through it the world over: an element of abuse and that is clearly present here.
- onion2k 5y agoFor me, that's a pretty good deal. I could never do this on my own. No one is saying Apple shouldn't offer the service, or that it's not a good service, or even that Apple shouldn't charge 15%. If you think Apple do a good job and offer value for money then you should use their service and pay what they charge. The only thing people want is the opportunity to use a competing service. That's it.
- thathndude 5y agoGoogle Play Store. What am I missing?
- mrtksn 5y agoExactly. It literally enables level playing field for smaller developers who can't simply incorporate in 175 countries and navigate through the rules, regulations of taxes. The value that Apple provides for the smaller developers is immense, you don't actually see small developers complaining about Apple(with exception to those who were sherlocked maybe) but you see multi billion corporations pretending to be advocating for the little guy. I'm very annoyed by all this, I'm afraid that they will win and solo developers will lose any chance to make it big without getting screwed by large publishers. Can you please stop saving the small developers from Apple? Thank you.
- jacquesm 5y ago> you see multi billion corporations pretending to be advocating for the little guy. And they are. The little guys won't stand up to 30% of their gross taken but the big guys can and do. As a result after all the lawsuits have run their course Apple will be charging a much lower fee in the hopes of regaining their payment processing marketshare.
- mrtksn 5y agoHow do you decide that %30 breaks the business but %15 is fine? Can I see your math please?
- tinus_hn 5y ago15% is really low, considering you can pay using discounted iTunes cards. Typically in the Netherlands you can buy them with 15% extra credit, which is about 13% off. So you can almost take money from Apple by buying these cards and spending them on your app. The only problem is taxes.
- MilaM 5y agoThis is a valid argument. But it's not like devs are completely on their own outside of the App Store. There are at least two other companies that provide payment and licensing services to software vendors like Fastspring or Paddle. I only know these companies as a buyer software licenses. Never had any problems with them. But I can't say how it is to deal with them as a software vendor.
- HatchedLake721 5y agoWhat Paddle and Fastspring offer is what Apple values at 3% of the 30% fee. This is about access to marketplace with 1+ billion people for a vertically integrated device that cost billions of R&D money. Same as if you want your SaaS to be on Shopify or Salesforce store. You'll pay a cut to be there. Because Shopify and Salesforce offer you access to their customers to install your app in 1 click.
- Aulig 5y agoI use Paddle as a seller and it's an amazing experience. No VAT hassle (both paying it and displaying prices correctly on my website) and super easy integration on my website (comparable to Stripe). Plus you get a bunch of payment methods at once (Apple Pay, Paypal, credit card, bank transfer,...). A great experience all around for a fair price (5%).
- baxtr 5y agoDoes paddle give you access to 1.8 bn installed devices though?
- Aulig 5y agoThere's merchants of record like Paddle.com that do the exact same thing (handle taxes on software sales for you) and they charge 5%. And that includes payment processing fees they have to pay to Paypal etc. So with Apple's scale, they could easily offer this service at below 5% commission.
- syspec 5y agoYou're paying for access to iPhone users, not the transaction fee. An analogy would be, creating a product and getting on store shelves. You pay the store owner a percentage of each sale, in order to be sold in the store
- mongol 5y agoGood for you it is a good deal. The problem is that it is the only deal.
- viktorcode 5y agoBigger developers who pay 30% can do that on their own. Hence the legal lobbying to make platform gatekeepers to cede some ground.