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The second post in your second link is shocking too: > One night, when I was a dev manager at Amazon, another dev manager in Seattle sent me a 20-page design d

The second post in your second link is shocking too: > One night, when I was a dev manager at Amazon, another dev manager in Seattle sent me a 20-page design document at 11:30 pm and told me that he wanted me to get him feedback by 5:30 am the next day. How fucking rude is that? It’s indicative of an absolutely staggering level of toxicity. Honestly, what a waste. Imagine how much better Amazon could be if they didn’t treat their staff like cattle.

deepsun 5y ago
Why not just ignoring the email -- you're not supposed to be awake at 11:30pm at all.
severak_cz 5y ago
I expected some timezone difference was here but no - this is a just a toxic person.
- shrumm 5y ago
  it’s also worrying this person was checking his email at 1130pm.
  - DarylZero 5y ago
    They didn't even say they read it at 11:30, they said it was sent at 11:30.
    - shrumm 5y ago
      fair. just to clarify though - i find the expectation to be always online / checking work email at all hours also a sign of a toxic workplace. definitely could have phrased my original comment better.
jonathankoren 5y ago
That’s when you CC (don’t BCC, you want them to know) yours and theirs managers on the email that says that says plainly, “If you expected this to be done by 5:30 am, you should have sent two days before. Perhaps this can help you be more efficient with your time.” and include a link to a YouTube — or better yet, an internal training video — on effective time management or setting deadlines. Seriously. You publicly stick the knife in for this shit.
Cthulhu_ 5y ago
And I wouldn't be surprised if that Seattle dev manager got pressured from above themselves. But at some point, someone has to set boundaries. If that manager then got pissy about it not being finished, there's a few lines to be used. One is "I was asleep". Another is "Night shifts and overtime are not in my contract", or "I do not get paid enough to do night shifts". And another one, "A lack of planning on your part does not necessitate an emergency on mine". But here's what I think is going on: Amazon's higher-ups (the level(s) above these people) are intentionally making these managers put pressure on each other to keep them overworked and sedate. I feel like this is the case for a LOT of US work culture across a lot of areas. It applies to low wage jobs with a high chance of being fired as well. Keep people stressed about the short term and they won't have the headspace to worry about things outside of their sphere of influence. This allows the rich to get richer and the politicians to become more powerful (and incompetent).
- hashimotonomora 5y ago
  It’s not so deep. Possibly the manager needed that feedback and forgot until the last moment and doesn’t care how the employee can fulfill it.
- BeetleB 5y ago
  Honestly, in some orgs in my company "I was asleep" would be the only acceptable answer. All the others would put you on a path of getting fired. If the whole org operates like this, no one cares about your witty remarks. If you really don't want to work like this (and I don't), have a 1:1 with the manager, discuss boundaries, and if you can't come to an agreement, change teams or jobs. And better yet, ask these during the interview! One question I often asked: "In my current job, I typically leave my laptop at work when I leave at 5-6pm (unless there's a genuine ongoing emergency). Would that work in this role?"
TrackerFF 5y ago
Maybe said manager used to be a banker? Would certainly explain the casual attitude towards dropping docs at 1130PM, and demanding feedback 6 hours later.
Aeolun 5y ago
So at 9am the next morning, you send a reply that you were sleeping?
zo1 5y ago
We get paid to do a job. And sometimes that requires odd things like helping out with urgent problems at odd times. At that point it really is too-"fucking"-late (too borrow your crassness) to complain about project planning, politeness and schedules because everyone involved already knows those failed. If it was me asking for feedback, I wouldn't have sent it if I wasn't in a pickle that I probably had no control over. Okay, so you didn't read the mail and you only get to it the next day at 8 when your working hours started, cool leave it at that.
odonnellryan 5y ago
Better for who? Probably not the shareholders.

deepsun 5y ago

Why not just ignoring the email -- you're not supposed to be awake at 11:30pm at all.

severak_cz 5y ago

I expected some timezone difference was here but no - this is a just a toxic person.

shrumm 5y ago
it’s also worrying this person was checking his email at 1130pm.
- DarylZero 5y ago
  They didn't even say they read it at 11:30, they said it was sent at 11:30.
  - shrumm 5y ago
    fair. just to clarify though - i find the expectation to be always online / checking work email at all hours also a sign of a toxic workplace. definitely could have phrased my original comment better.

jonathankoren 5y ago

That’s when you CC (don’t BCC, you want them to know) yours and theirs managers on the email that says that says plainly, “If you expected this to be done by 5:30 am, you should have sent two days before. Perhaps this can help you be more efficient with your time.” and include a link to a YouTube — or better yet, an internal training video — on effective time management or setting deadlines. Seriously. You publicly stick the knife in for this shit.

Cthulhu_ 5y ago

And I wouldn't be surprised if that Seattle dev manager got pressured from above themselves. But at some point, someone has to set boundaries. If that manager then got pissy about it not being finished, there's a few lines to be used. One is "I was asleep". Another is "Night shifts and overtime are not in my contract", or "I do not get paid enough to do night shifts". And another one, "A lack of planning on your part does not necessitate an emergency on mine". But here's what I think is going on: Amazon's higher-ups (the level(s) above these people) are intentionally making these managers put pressure on each other to keep them overworked and sedate. I feel like this is the case for a LOT of US work culture across a lot of areas. It applies to low wage jobs with a high chance of being fired as well. Keep people stressed about the short term and they won't have the headspace to worry about things outside of their sphere of influence. This allows the rich to get richer and the politicians to become more powerful (and incompetent).

hashimotonomora 5y ago
It’s not so deep. Possibly the manager needed that feedback and forgot until the last moment and doesn’t care how the employee can fulfill it.
BeetleB 5y ago
Honestly, in some orgs in my company "I was asleep" would be the only acceptable answer. All the others would put you on a path of getting fired. If the whole org operates like this, no one cares about your witty remarks. If you really don't want to work like this (and I don't), have a 1:1 with the manager, discuss boundaries, and if you can't come to an agreement, change teams or jobs. And better yet, ask these during the interview! One question I often asked: "In my current job, I typically leave my laptop at work when I leave at 5-6pm (unless there's a genuine ongoing emergency). Would that work in this role?"

TrackerFF 5y ago

Maybe said manager used to be a banker? Would certainly explain the casual attitude towards dropping docs at 1130PM, and demanding feedback 6 hours later.

Aeolun 5y ago

So at 9am the next morning, you send a reply that you were sleeping?

zo1 5y ago

We get paid to do a job. And sometimes that requires odd things like helping out with urgent problems at odd times. At that point it really is too-"fucking"-late (too borrow your crassness) to complain about project planning, politeness and schedules because everyone involved already knows those failed. If it was me asking for feedback, I wouldn't have sent it if I wasn't in a pickle that I probably had no control over. Okay, so you didn't read the mail and you only get to it the next day at 8 when your working hours started, cool leave it at that.

odonnellryan 5y ago

Better for who? Probably not the shareholders.