3 ms·

So what has changed since 2008 when multiple US presidents attended the Chinese olympics? Were the Uyghurs and Tibetans not oppressed 14 years ago? As I see it

So what has changed since 2008 when multiple US presidents attended the Chinese olympics? Were the Uyghurs and Tibetans not oppressed 14 years ago? As I see it the big thing that has changed is that the American establishment has decided that a rising China is a threat to American global dominance and must be stopped at all cost. This campaign against the Chinese olympics is just one of many efforts to pursue that goal.

throwaway4good 5y ago
If anything the oppression of the Uyghurs probably peaked around 2008 with multiple riots, terror attacks and counter-terror attacks occuring at that time. However back then the Chinese effort was alligned with US efforts in Afghanistan and thus did not get much play in western media. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Uyghur_unrest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Uyghur_unrest
- tehnub 5y ago
  Here's a quote from the first full paragraph of the article >The boy was only 2 in 2016, when he left Turkey with his mother and grandmother to visit their homeland in China’s Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region. Mass arrests began while the child was there. More than a million Uyghurs, Kazakhs and other mostly Muslim minorities were forced into indoctrination camps. Looks like things escalated since 2008.
  - throwaway4good 5y ago
    In terms of attacks it definately peeked around then. Of course the claim is that reason the attacks stopped is that China put all the young Uyghur men in internment camps.
seanmcdirmid 5y ago
In 2008, China was in a liberalization phase and things, while not great, seemed to be getting better. The backsliding afterwards has popped any optimism about a more open/human rights aware China. China was also ascending in 2008, but looked much more compatible with the west and other countries than it does today. While Hu was surely a weak leader, Xi’s “second coming of Mao aspirations” have largely turned the western world off. It will be interesting to see who will succeed him (except, as if this moment, he is basically president for life).
- dirtyid 5y ago
  IMO this timeline places too much emphasis on Xi and his Mao aspirations. - 2008 PRC puts on successful Olympics. - Also 2008 PRC disillusioned with US system post GFC. - 2009 PRC releases Indigenous Innovation Policy - precursor to MIC2025 that seeks to eventually undermine US monopoly on advanced manufacturing. - ~2010 China dismantles US CIA network and found out full extent of infiltration of US in PRC politics. Simultaneously ~2010s US think tanks started developing Obamas East Asia Policy, then "official" Pivot to East in 2012, which accounts for trend of PRC becoming competitor. This is all pre-Xi, whose policies were continuation of above: - further eroded US influence by crushing NGOs, retaliatory kicking out of western press, HK (western influence) - credibly modernized the military when previous efforts failed, built SCS islands - was public about MIC2025, Huawei become preview for PRC dominated tech - increasing development/maturity of PRC R&D and manufacturing This was until 2018 when US/west options to influence PRC have been thoroughly eroded, while PRC reach spread, and it become more obvious PRC industrial policy and acquisitions abroad was tailored to compete with other advanced economies. Even then it could have gone either way (at least for a little while), XJ was below radar stuff, HK was subject to Trump Trade deal until covid changed US domestic policy sufficiently to hand reigns to Chinahawks. It has nothing to do with Xi having Mao aspirations but Xi doing what others could not, comprehensively undermine US influence within PRC while also picking away at US military and economic primacy. First is just good statecraft, last two inevitable - can't expect world's largest economy by PPP to have weak military or stay down on the value chain forever. In terms of turning off west, you have PRC daring to directly competing with US turning off immediate US sphere (FVEY, east asia security SKR / JP) first, Then you have PRC wolf warrior asserting privileges of great power that turned off EU (TBD)... sanctioning EU (politicians and now secondary sanctions to Lithuania) for thinking it can sanction or undermine PRC core interests consequence free. PRC would have had to hide and bide in 2000s, but less politically tentable in 2020s. Xi hasn't changed since 2012, the geopolitical balance has. Could it all have been avoided, maybe a few years. But PRC pursuing her interests with her resources was going to butt heads eventually. Xi/Trump dynamic accelerated things. Xi's fault was being competent where it matters to westerns interests, and no doubt his foreseeable tenure will only add to ongoing anxieties.
  - 5y ago
derbOac 5y ago
There's also the Olympics side of the equation. I think as awareness of all the problems with the Olympics has increased, the threshold for its rejection has lowered. I love the basic substance of the Olympics, but the infrastructure around it is rotten. We need a more environmentally, financially, and socially principled Olympic games.

throwaway4good 5y ago

If anything the oppression of the Uyghurs probably peaked around 2008 with multiple riots, terror attacks and counter-terror attacks occuring at that time. However back then the Chinese effort was alligned with US efforts in Afghanistan and thus did not get much play in western media. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Uyghur_unrest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Uyghur_unrest

tehnub 5y ago
Here's a quote from the first full paragraph of the article >The boy was only 2 in 2016, when he left Turkey with his mother and grandmother to visit their homeland in China’s Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region. Mass arrests began while the child was there. More than a million Uyghurs, Kazakhs and other mostly Muslim minorities were forced into indoctrination camps. Looks like things escalated since 2008.
- throwaway4good 5y ago
  In terms of attacks it definately peeked around then. Of course the claim is that reason the attacks stopped is that China put all the young Uyghur men in internment camps.

seanmcdirmid 5y ago

In 2008, China was in a liberalization phase and things, while not great, seemed to be getting better. The backsliding afterwards has popped any optimism about a more open/human rights aware China. China was also ascending in 2008, but looked much more compatible with the west and other countries than it does today. While Hu was surely a weak leader, Xi’s “second coming of Mao aspirations” have largely turned the western world off. It will be interesting to see who will succeed him (except, as if this moment, he is basically president for life).

dirtyid 5y ago
IMO this timeline places too much emphasis on Xi and his Mao aspirations. - 2008 PRC puts on successful Olympics. - Also 2008 PRC disillusioned with US system post GFC. - 2009 PRC releases Indigenous Innovation Policy - precursor to MIC2025 that seeks to eventually undermine US monopoly on advanced manufacturing. - ~2010 China dismantles US CIA network and found out full extent of infiltration of US in PRC politics. Simultaneously ~2010s US think tanks started developing Obamas East Asia Policy, then "official" Pivot to East in 2012, which accounts for trend of PRC becoming competitor. This is all pre-Xi, whose policies were continuation of above: - further eroded US influence by crushing NGOs, retaliatory kicking out of western press, HK (western influence) - credibly modernized the military when previous efforts failed, built SCS islands - was public about MIC2025, Huawei become preview for PRC dominated tech - increasing development/maturity of PRC R&D and manufacturing This was until 2018 when US/west options to influence PRC have been thoroughly eroded, while PRC reach spread, and it become more obvious PRC industrial policy and acquisitions abroad was tailored to compete with other advanced economies. Even then it could have gone either way (at least for a little while), XJ was below radar stuff, HK was subject to Trump Trade deal until covid changed US domestic policy sufficiently to hand reigns to Chinahawks. It has nothing to do with Xi having Mao aspirations but Xi doing what others could not, comprehensively undermine US influence within PRC while also picking away at US military and economic primacy. First is just good statecraft, last two inevitable - can't expect world's largest economy by PPP to have weak military or stay down on the value chain forever. In terms of turning off west, you have PRC daring to directly competing with US turning off immediate US sphere (FVEY, east asia security SKR / JP) first, Then you have PRC wolf warrior asserting privileges of great power that turned off EU (TBD)... sanctioning EU (politicians and now secondary sanctions to Lithuania) for thinking it can sanction or undermine PRC core interests consequence free. PRC would have had to hide and bide in 2000s, but less politically tentable in 2020s. Xi hasn't changed since 2012, the geopolitical balance has. Could it all have been avoided, maybe a few years. But PRC pursuing her interests with her resources was going to butt heads eventually. Xi/Trump dynamic accelerated things. Xi's fault was being competent where it matters to westerns interests, and no doubt his foreseeable tenure will only add to ongoing anxieties.
- 5y ago

derbOac 5y ago

There's also the Olympics side of the equation. I think as awareness of all the problems with the Olympics has increased, the threshold for its rejection has lowered. I love the basic substance of the Olympics, but the infrastructure around it is rotten. We need a more environmentally, financially, and socially principled Olympic games.