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Why are people who do this never named? They should be named. This type of behavior perpetuates because despite this employee revealing a company issue.. the in

Why are people who do this never named? They should be named. This type of behavior perpetuates because despite this employee revealing a company issue.. the individual perpetrator can still hide behind anonymity. CALL these ass holes out.

hhmc 5y ago
It's possible (although maybe not likely) that this guy really _did_ deserve to be put on PIP, and the team transfer request is completely incidental. Unless we can know for sure, or at least from a less biased source, we probably shouldn't doxx the manager?
- deltaonefour 5y ago
  Yeah that's true. We really need some service like blind where people can anonymously review and score managers. We need votes to prove that a manager is an ass hole. One anecdotal story isn't enough. Maybe the service leaves the manager anonymous until the review amount crosses a certain threshold... 3 to 4 guys calling him out? Submit this to ycombinator!
  - deelly 5y ago
    Honest question: how to prevent abusing this system?
    - KnobbleMcKnees 5y ago
      Hey we've come full circle to PIP again. But seriously: there isn't a way. This is why sites like Glassdoor are garbage and teacher rating sites have ruined careers over minor issues.
    - deltaonefour 5y ago
      So one email per company is allowed one vote. Similar to how blind allows one account per email. That prevents abuse. You don't like the guy, you can vote once because you have an email address at the company. If 3 or 4 people don't like the guy then the system assumes there is genuinely a problem with him and it reveals itself. That means one person can't run a smear campaign. At least 2 or 3 other people have to agree with you, and if they do then it's legit. The system masks the persons negative reviews until that manager has accumulated greater than 3 or 4. Three or four negative reviews from people in the company is NOT a minor issue.
  - whywhywhywhy 5y ago
    > We really need some service like blind where people can anonymously review and score managers Wouldn’t managers just make a service where they review and score engineers too?
    - deltaonefour 5y ago
      Every employee can be reviewed! It's fair. Here's the thing though, I said you need 3 to 4 negative reviews before the entire review profile becomes public. Each engineer has one manager, thus they have one review. The profile doesn't open up until after the engineer worked for several managers and 3 or 4 of them leave bad reviews. It's fair. But managers are more at risk. Still this process keeps everyone in line. Don't be a jackass is the key metric here.
MattGaiser 5y ago
The problem is that society doesn’t really stand behind whistleblowers. We claim to, but at the end of the day want someone else to do the standing behind them while we go back to our lives. And we don’t want whistleblowers around as we fear that we will be their next target. Whistleblowers, in their effort to restore trust, become automatically untrusted by large swaths of society. Naming makes you persona non grata to a lot of people.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- deltaonefour 5y ago
  There should be a way to name these people anonymously. Maybe drop the ass holes name on blind or make a "shitbosses.com" where we name these jackasses and vote. Heck I'll stand behind my words. If you ever apply to a company called Anduril. Watch out for a childish manager named Calvin Hareng. This MF: https://www.zoominfo.com/p/Calvin-Hareng/-1964480350 https://www.zoominfo.com/p/Calvin-Hareng/-1964480350 Anduril is hiring and if you're coming on board watch out if he's going to be your manager. He indeed PIPs you if you try to switch teams, just like this amazonian ass hole.
  - MattGaiser 5y ago
    We could create a developer filibuster. Create lists of terrible teams and tell people that they are good for interview practice, but little else.
    - deltaonefour 5y ago
      All we want is change in the industry. This is enough for that I believe. Your name on the internet, your employees calling you out (anonymously). It's social proof. That effects your awareness and also your future job opportunities.
      - fortylove 5y ago
MattGaiser 5y ago
See comments like these. Even this post is too much for some people. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30204121 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30204121
- deltaonefour 5y ago
  There are a lot of ass holes in the world. Not saying the post you linked to is an ass hole... but Ass holes do tend to empathize with other ass holes. I think the majority of people don't see it in the same light.
kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
Because then they could defend themselves, perhaps?
ActorNightly 5y ago
Stop with the needless hate. We are talking about people in the top 8% of the income bracket in US. Not a single engineer in Amazon that has or is getting PIPed is losing their livelihood. If you have Amazon on your resume, no matter what, you will have no issues finding another job, because the acceptance rate by itself to Amazon is <10% of all candidates, which acts as a very good filter and indicator for other companies that your more competent than a large percentage of work force there, so you automatically get a shot at an interview and likely a job offer if you are actually competent. The biggest drawback of something like this is maybe having to wait an extra few months before buying that sweet BMW M3 that you wanted. If anything, this kind of stuff should be viewed as games, because that's all this is. Supply/demand of labor mixed in with a few political and psychological things. The manager is not even close to being an asshole, he is just playing the game like all the employees are. Lets not pretend that the majority of people wanting to work at Amazon care enough about changing the world, they just want that MAANG salary.
- deelly 5y ago
  Cool, basically, "I can abuse you in any way I want because I`m paying you a good money". So, why this is shitty? Mainly because thats inside thing, and there no way to learn it during interview. >> Not a single engineer in Amazon that has or is getting PIPed is losing their livelihood. Can you provide source for this claim?
  - ActorNightly 5y ago
    I did in the next sentence logically. Its impossible to gather such data since you would have to track people across multiple jobs.
- deltaonefour 5y ago
  >If anything, this kind of stuff should be viewed as games, because that's all this is. Supply/demand of labor mixed in with a few political and psychological things. The manager is not even close to being an asshole, he is just playing the game like all the employees are. Firing people and putting them on PIP is just a game because amazon is such a great company to have on your resume? It's just a game because his livelihood is not effected? What universe do you live in? Let me tell you about how the world works. If you fire people for trying to transfer teams. If you lie and make up stories about performance because someone tried to transfer teams. You're an ass hole through and through. No one is being hated here. Just being called out, and people are expressing their extreme dislike for such behavior. I can't believe you called it a game. This must be how ass hole managers justify their actions to themselves. It's like a bully in school calling it all a game because the person being bullied still has parents that feed him. Let's be real. It's not a game. Not. at. all.
mFixman 5y ago
(I didn't read the article; the page seems to be down). A lot of these cases end up with the manager not necessarily having a lot of blame since they might not have full information on what's happening. They might also be in a similar performance crisis of their own. If the entire company is having cultural problems and PIP horror stories are common, then the fault is from the people on the top and not from the M1 that laid out the PIP.
- deltaonefour 5y ago
  That's like blaming your parents for you turning out to be an ass hole. I think the manager still needs to be called out regardless and if his boss is an ass then the boss needs to be called out.
raz32dust 5y ago
I think that will be extremely unfair to the manager who is just acting on stupid company policies. Managers have a very difficult job of walking a tight rope. Why single out one person and ruin their career?
- deltaonefour 5y ago
  So firing someone for trying to switch teams is company policy? I doubt it. Many managers are ass holes because that's the definition of their personality. I feel ass holes should definitely be singled out so that they can't be managers again for the future.
  - raz32dust 5y ago
    (1) If the manager did PIP purely as a way to prevent team transfer, then yes I agree that it is clear bad behavior that should be punished. But I am not sure if that is the case. Say this guy was the lowest performer in the manager's team and was on track to being PIPed anyway. Should the manager now be forced to PIP someone else just because this guy is moving to another team? (2) There are way too many PIP horror stories from Amazon. It is evident that managers even hire people just to PIP them later. In that kind of environment, such bad behavior is encouraged and normalized. Then this particular manager might not be significantly worse than any other person put in a similar position. If the culture is to blame, then scapegoating one manager will just deflect the blame.
    - deltaonefour 5y ago
      I disagree. The executioner that carries out Hitlers orders should still be guilty of the crime. I do agree that it is unfair. You have 100 axe murderers. You put one in jail, the rest get away with it. That is unfair.

hhmc 5y ago

It's possible (although maybe not likely) that this guy really _did_ deserve to be put on PIP, and the team transfer request is completely incidental. Unless we can know for sure, or at least from a less biased source, we probably shouldn't doxx the manager?

deltaonefour 5y ago
Yeah that's true. We really need some service like blind where people can anonymously review and score managers. We need votes to prove that a manager is an ass hole. One anecdotal story isn't enough. Maybe the service leaves the manager anonymous until the review amount crosses a certain threshold... 3 to 4 guys calling him out? Submit this to ycombinator!
- deelly 5y ago
  Honest question: how to prevent abusing this system?
  - KnobbleMcKnees 5y ago
    Hey we've come full circle to PIP again. But seriously: there isn't a way. This is why sites like Glassdoor are garbage and teacher rating sites have ruined careers over minor issues.
  - deltaonefour 5y ago
    So one email per company is allowed one vote. Similar to how blind allows one account per email. That prevents abuse. You don't like the guy, you can vote once because you have an email address at the company. If 3 or 4 people don't like the guy then the system assumes there is genuinely a problem with him and it reveals itself. That means one person can't run a smear campaign. At least 2 or 3 other people have to agree with you, and if they do then it's legit. The system masks the persons negative reviews until that manager has accumulated greater than 3 or 4. Three or four negative reviews from people in the company is NOT a minor issue.
- whywhywhywhy 5y ago
  > We really need some service like blind where people can anonymously review and score managers Wouldn’t managers just make a service where they review and score engineers too?
  - deltaonefour 5y ago
    Every employee can be reviewed! It's fair. Here's the thing though, I said you need 3 to 4 negative reviews before the entire review profile becomes public. Each engineer has one manager, thus they have one review. The profile doesn't open up until after the engineer worked for several managers and 3 or 4 of them leave bad reviews. It's fair. But managers are more at risk. Still this process keeps everyone in line. Don't be a jackass is the key metric here.

MattGaiser 5y ago

The problem is that society doesn’t really stand behind whistleblowers. We claim to, but at the end of the day want someone else to do the standing behind them while we go back to our lives. And we don’t want whistleblowers around as we fear that we will be their next target. Whistleblowers, in their effort to restore trust, become automatically untrusted by large swaths of society. Naming makes you persona non grata to a lot of people.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
deltaonefour 5y ago
There should be a way to name these people anonymously. Maybe drop the ass holes name on blind or make a "shitbosses.com" where we name these jackasses and vote. Heck I'll stand behind my words. If you ever apply to a company called Anduril. Watch out for a childish manager named Calvin Hareng. This MF: https://www.zoominfo.com/p/Calvin-Hareng/-1964480350 https://www.zoominfo.com/p/Calvin-Hareng/-1964480350 Anduril is hiring and if you're coming on board watch out if he's going to be your manager. He indeed PIPs you if you try to switch teams, just like this amazonian ass hole.
- MattGaiser 5y ago
  We could create a developer filibuster. Create lists of terrible teams and tell people that they are good for interview practice, but little else.
  - deltaonefour 5y ago
    All we want is change in the industry. This is enough for that I believe. Your name on the internet, your employees calling you out (anonymously). It's social proof. That effects your awareness and also your future job opportunities.
    - fortylove 5y ago

MattGaiser 5y ago

See comments like these. Even this post is too much for some people. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30204121 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30204121

deltaonefour 5y ago
There are a lot of ass holes in the world. Not saying the post you linked to is an ass hole... but Ass holes do tend to empathize with other ass holes. I think the majority of people don't see it in the same light.

kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago

Because then they could defend themselves, perhaps?

ActorNightly 5y ago

Stop with the needless hate. We are talking about people in the top 8% of the income bracket in US. Not a single engineer in Amazon that has or is getting PIPed is losing their livelihood. If you have Amazon on your resume, no matter what, you will have no issues finding another job, because the acceptance rate by itself to Amazon is <10% of all candidates, which acts as a very good filter and indicator for other companies that your more competent than a large percentage of work force there, so you automatically get a shot at an interview and likely a job offer if you are actually competent. The biggest drawback of something like this is maybe having to wait an extra few months before buying that sweet BMW M3 that you wanted. If anything, this kind of stuff should be viewed as games, because that's all this is. Supply/demand of labor mixed in with a few political and psychological things. The manager is not even close to being an asshole, he is just playing the game like all the employees are. Lets not pretend that the majority of people wanting to work at Amazon care enough about changing the world, they just want that MAANG salary.

deelly 5y ago
Cool, basically, "I can abuse you in any way I want because I`m paying you a good money". So, why this is shitty? Mainly because thats inside thing, and there no way to learn it during interview. >> Not a single engineer in Amazon that has or is getting PIPed is losing their livelihood. Can you provide source for this claim?
- ActorNightly 5y ago
  I did in the next sentence logically. Its impossible to gather such data since you would have to track people across multiple jobs.
deltaonefour 5y ago
>If anything, this kind of stuff should be viewed as games, because that's all this is. Supply/demand of labor mixed in with a few political and psychological things. The manager is not even close to being an asshole, he is just playing the game like all the employees are. Firing people and putting them on PIP is just a game because amazon is such a great company to have on your resume? It's just a game because his livelihood is not effected? What universe do you live in? Let me tell you about how the world works. If you fire people for trying to transfer teams. If you lie and make up stories about performance because someone tried to transfer teams. You're an ass hole through and through. No one is being hated here. Just being called out, and people are expressing their extreme dislike for such behavior. I can't believe you called it a game. This must be how ass hole managers justify their actions to themselves. It's like a bully in school calling it all a game because the person being bullied still has parents that feed him. Let's be real. It's not a game. Not. at. all.

mFixman 5y ago

(I didn't read the article; the page seems to be down). A lot of these cases end up with the manager not necessarily having a lot of blame since they might not have full information on what's happening. They might also be in a similar performance crisis of their own. If the entire company is having cultural problems and PIP horror stories are common, then the fault is from the people on the top and not from the M1 that laid out the PIP.

deltaonefour 5y ago
That's like blaming your parents for you turning out to be an ass hole. I think the manager still needs to be called out regardless and if his boss is an ass then the boss needs to be called out.

raz32dust 5y ago

I think that will be extremely unfair to the manager who is just acting on stupid company policies. Managers have a very difficult job of walking a tight rope. Why single out one person and ruin their career?

deltaonefour 5y ago
So firing someone for trying to switch teams is company policy? I doubt it. Many managers are ass holes because that's the definition of their personality. I feel ass holes should definitely be singled out so that they can't be managers again for the future.
- raz32dust 5y ago
  (1) If the manager did PIP purely as a way to prevent team transfer, then yes I agree that it is clear bad behavior that should be punished. But I am not sure if that is the case. Say this guy was the lowest performer in the manager's team and was on track to being PIPed anyway. Should the manager now be forced to PIP someone else just because this guy is moving to another team? (2) There are way too many PIP horror stories from Amazon. It is evident that managers even hire people just to PIP them later. In that kind of environment, such bad behavior is encouraged and normalized. Then this particular manager might not be significantly worse than any other person put in a similar position. If the culture is to blame, then scapegoating one manager will just deflect the blame.
  - deltaonefour 5y ago
    I disagree. The executioner that carries out Hitlers orders should still be guilty of the crime. I do agree that it is unfair. You have 100 axe murderers. You put one in jail, the rest get away with it. That is unfair.