6 ms·

Can anyone point to a change or sacrifice they have made because they disagree with Chinas treatment of anyone?

yumraj 5y ago
Trying to buy as many things that are not made in China as possible, even if I have to spend more since in most cases that means buying a better product, and in others buying fewer products. I was recently pleasantly surprised to see that the M1 iMac was made in Thailand.
- perihelions 5y ago
  Apple is a particularly bad offender; they actively lobbied the US government against sanctions targeting Uyghur concentration camp labor. https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/11/20/apple-uighur/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/11/20/apple-u... ("Apple is lobbying against a bill aimed at stopping forced labor in China")
- friedturkey 5y ago
  Thailand has a rampant slave problem. Their seafood industry is propped up by slaves and the sex slavery that’s prevalent throughout the country is sickening. The ongoing human rights abuses and absolute suppression of anyone who questions the king is also terrifying. After going to Thailand and seeing the situation there first hand, I’ve decided to never buy a Thai product ever again.
  - yumraj 5y ago
    I'm not doubting what you're saying, but given the choice between China and Thailand, I'll take made in Thailand anyday. But, that's just me.
    - friedturkey 5y ago
      I've been to both. Thailand is the place where I felt like I could be arrested for being slightly out of line and had to tread very carefully. People in China had no problem complaining about their government, and there aren't portraits of their dear leader plastered everywhere like in Thailand. I also never saw people openly using drugged up and sedated kids as a begging tool in China, but I sure did in Thailand. The perception of the countries always feels astonishingly backwards to me.
      - yumraj 5y ago
        What's the equivalent of Tibet and Xinjiang in the context of Thailand - basically state sponsored concentration camps and genocide?
seibelj 5y ago
I no longer take certain corporate leaders and athletes seriously when they lecture about how horrible the USA is, when they reap huge sums from a criminal nightmare. The hypocrisy is not lost on many people, and over time such hypocrisy erodes trust and support.
TulliusCicero 5y ago
I stopped eating Chinese food. That'll show 'em! No but seriously -- whether someone pops in with a serious change, or absolutely zero changes, what does that tell us about Uyghur oppression? What are you getting at?
- dymk 5y ago
  OP is asking if we're actually willing to personally sacrifice in order to pressure China into not violating human rights. Or if we're all talk and no bite. And it's a fair question. Has anyone here even written to their senator? The only way the leadership of our country (I'm assuming most of us are in the US) is going to impose real sanctions and penalties on China is if we, as a people, vehemently demand it. Personally, I am attempting to persuade those within my company that we restrict our business with China. This does not typically go over well, because 1) there's a lot of money in China, and 2) there are many Chinese nationals in our employ who very much do not like people pointing out the human rights violations of their country.
  - benrbray 5y ago
    > Has anyone here even written to their senator? Can anyone point to a change or sacrifice a senator has made to their beliefs after receiving a letter? I'm guessing a check would be more persuasive.
    - dymk 5y ago
      Actually yeah, we had a recent law here in Washington pass (I cannot remember the specifics of it, but that's not the important part). Iirc, 8 people in total contacted a particular state rep (well, their office), and that law was given the time of day because turns out, _very very_ few people ever try to get in contact with them. Now, this was a state senator, not a US senator, but still, it only takes a very small (but very vocal!) minority to at least signal concern. China is obviously a much bigger issue and there are greater powers pushing back against any kind of real action. But it does send a message.
outside1234 5y ago
Not watching the Olympics, deleted TikTok off everyone’s phones in the house, buying more locally made things, etc.
- hervature 5y ago
  Serious question, does not watching the Olympics hurt them other than signaling? Currently debating getting Peacock for the month but have held out to boycott as well. To me, it seems it is only hurting NBC and, in a strange way, the US.
  - dymk 5y ago
    It's a form of protest to NBC and our leadership. Protest is a form of signaling, but it's one that the US takes seriously when enough people do it.
  - zarzavat 5y ago
    Appearances or “face” is very important in China, perhaps as important as money. Every Olympics a premier opportunity for China to gain face on the world stage, by showing off Chinese athletes. Hosting the Olympics is therefore an even greater exercise in national pride, and China takes it extremely seriously. So yes, if the olympics is a failure because people boycott it then it hurts their pride because they have built their pride around such events.
caconym_ 5y ago
What's your point?
hetspookjee 5y ago
Spending way too much time finding alternatives that are not from china. But my oh my is it difficult not end up at a reseller or something. Often I find myself postponing it for a long time or in the end giving in and still buying something made in Chiba or partially. Also I’m hosting a small Olympics boycot party which is not very popular admittedly but it’s something. And Corona doesn’t help with that either.
jeswin 5y ago
1. I always check the country of origin before buying. I still buy China-made products when there's absolutely no other option, but whenever there's an alternative made anywhere outside China (whether higher priced, or even slightly inferior), I buy that instead. 2. Going to fund the development (since I can't do this myself) of a browser plugin to help people find non-China goods on Amazon easily. Just two features: Remove Chinese origin items from the search list, and display a warning on the item page when it's made in China. 3. Support Tibetans by buying things they make, visiting their businesses etc.
- dnautics 5y ago
  I do 1 as well. I've held off on buying a waffle iron because I don't need one and I can't find one that isn't made in china.
- vinnybad 5y ago
  I’d use the plugin.
- mkbkn 5y ago
  I do 1 very actively and as loudly as possible. I also do 3 whenever I get a chance, which is rare btw.
- eljimmy 5y ago
  Happy to read so many others here are doing #1. The country of origin for where a product was made is a great way to stop funneling your money to China. I've managed to spread this habit to a few of friends of mine but for the most part most don't seem to care. Often the reason being it's just cheaper to buy Chinese made. Human greed knows no bounds. Most people seem happy to put their head in the sand. I feel with time this type of movement can grow stronger though.
- hetspookjee 5y ago
  Where can I follow you on the plug-in? I’d like it too. And also a bit of a down side of current browser finger printing is that ability to infer the different kinds of plugins, in which this is quite a political signal
mc32 5y ago
It will take major corporate interests to take a stand like they did with South Africa with regards to apartheit. Massive economic impact can induce a corrective effect --unless you have a despot altogether like North Korea where noting will make a difference and only national trade policies can suppress coöperation. But, as we have witnessed so far, sometimes the money spigot is too good and you just make motions and pretensions --like LeBron James and Tim Cook.
- sofixa 5y ago
  The problem is that many companies rely heavily on China, either for supply, manufacturing or as a big lucrative market. South Africa wasn't nearly as important on any of those, so it was a much easier stance to make.
  - mc32 5y ago
    I guess. These people always talk a good game. Tim Cook talks about justice here and justice there and the environment here and there... but where the rubber hits the road, he gets quiet --as do myriad others. I mention him because he poses as the iconic industry titan who says all the right things but it's just a thin veneer. Same with mr James. He talks justice US-side but come China, it's crickets.
TeeMassive 5y ago
1) I'm looking for non-Chinese, thus less cheap and more durable, alternatives whenever I can. 2) I regularly speak out on CGTN (their global propaganda network that post on websites regular Chinese citizens don't have a right to access) on their social media pages using my personal account with my real identity. This has probably cut me off from the country and jobs that do lots of business there. 3) I talk politics with family and friends. I never bring up politics at the table, except for this subject. I know I probably lost a handful of "friends" because of that. Never mind. People often ask/brag about what they would have done during WW2 to fight Nazi Germany and the Japanese Empire, I always point out what they are doing right now with China.
Jensson 5y ago
Individuals boycotting a country never had a great effect. Boycotts needs organization, for example governments can do it. Did you vote to boycott China? That is what matters for these things.
zhoujianfu 5y ago
I had a list (of 37) recently public tech companies I was going to buy some of a couple of days ago. I realized 3 of them were Chinese and dropped them from the list.
csdvrx 5y ago
None whatsoever. Because 1) I do not hold people collectively responsible, and 2) even if acting in good will and on voluntary basis, this would mean I believe foreigners should be able to dictate to other countries how they should work within their own borders. If there is indeed a violation of international treaties, escapees should be able to sue China in Brussels or NYC at the International Criminal Court. This is the proper way to deal with such issues: by shining a bright light and not engaging in "feel good" actions that will be at best futile, at worst increase anti-Chinese racism.
- einszwei 5y ago
  I understand what you are saying but would you change your mind about those "feel good" actions if say there is possibility that gadgets/cosmetics you use could have come from forced labour? There have been publications in credible news sources for long and even the US government has acknowledged prevalence of Uyghur Forced Labor.
Aunche 5y ago
I struggle to understand the end goal of this sort of attitude. The sacrifice you would need to make to even remotely pressure China is orders of magnitude more than you could imagine. The last time a sanction actually worked was with Iran's nuclear program, which completely crushed their economy. That also required the most sophisticated cyberattack in history. Sanctions alone did nothing to stop Russia's annexation of Crimea, and that also caused Europe to suffer from expensive gas prices. China has a much large economy, so any equivalent sanction would be the largest drag on the economy since WWII. Also, keep in mind that any sanction use for humanitarian leverage is one less that we can use for geopolitical or economic leverage. The likelyhood that politicians would vote for meaningful sanctions to help Xinjiang is about as likely as voting for offering China $1 trillion to shut down their reeducation camps.
VictorPath 5y ago
newacc9 5y ago
I vote for the political party that thinks China is a problem, instead of the other one, but it does nothing. China is more powerful than the West at this point, so we're not calling the shots. They produce the equivalent of the French Navy each year, and have for over a decade, plus they dominate industry, AI, etc, etc.

Trying to buy as many things that are not made in China as possible, even if I have to spend more since in most cases that means buying a better product, and in others buying fewer products. I was recently pleasantly surprised to see that the M1 iMac was made in Thailand.

perihelions 5y ago
Apple is a particularly bad offender; they actively lobbied the US government against sanctions targeting Uyghur concentration camp labor. https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/11/20/apple-uighur/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/11/20/apple-u... ("Apple is lobbying against a bill aimed at stopping forced labor in China")
friedturkey 5y ago
Thailand has a rampant slave problem. Their seafood industry is propped up by slaves and the sex slavery that’s prevalent throughout the country is sickening. The ongoing human rights abuses and absolute suppression of anyone who questions the king is also terrifying. After going to Thailand and seeing the situation there first hand, I’ve decided to never buy a Thai product ever again.
- yumraj 5y ago
  I'm not doubting what you're saying, but given the choice between China and Thailand, I'll take made in Thailand anyday. But, that's just me.
  - friedturkey 5y ago
    I've been to both. Thailand is the place where I felt like I could be arrested for being slightly out of line and had to tread very carefully. People in China had no problem complaining about their government, and there aren't portraits of their dear leader plastered everywhere like in Thailand. I also never saw people openly using drugged up and sedated kids as a begging tool in China, but I sure did in Thailand. The perception of the countries always feels astonishingly backwards to me.
    - yumraj 5y ago
      What's the equivalent of Tibet and Xinjiang in the context of Thailand - basically state sponsored concentration camps and genocide?

seibelj 5y ago

I no longer take certain corporate leaders and athletes seriously when they lecture about how horrible the USA is, when they reap huge sums from a criminal nightmare. The hypocrisy is not lost on many people, and over time such hypocrisy erodes trust and support.

TulliusCicero 5y ago

I stopped eating Chinese food. That'll show 'em! No but seriously -- whether someone pops in with a serious change, or absolutely zero changes, what does that tell us about Uyghur oppression? What are you getting at?

dymk 5y ago
OP is asking if we're actually willing to personally sacrifice in order to pressure China into not violating human rights. Or if we're all talk and no bite. And it's a fair question. Has anyone here even written to their senator? The only way the leadership of our country (I'm assuming most of us are in the US) is going to impose real sanctions and penalties on China is if we, as a people, vehemently demand it. Personally, I am attempting to persuade those within my company that we restrict our business with China. This does not typically go over well, because 1) there's a lot of money in China, and 2) there are many Chinese nationals in our employ who very much do not like people pointing out the human rights violations of their country.
- benrbray 5y ago
  > Has anyone here even written to their senator? Can anyone point to a change or sacrifice a senator has made to their beliefs after receiving a letter? I'm guessing a check would be more persuasive.
  - dymk 5y ago
    Actually yeah, we had a recent law here in Washington pass (I cannot remember the specifics of it, but that's not the important part). Iirc, 8 people in total contacted a particular state rep (well, their office), and that law was given the time of day because turns out, _very very_ few people ever try to get in contact with them. Now, this was a state senator, not a US senator, but still, it only takes a very small (but very vocal!) minority to at least signal concern. China is obviously a much bigger issue and there are greater powers pushing back against any kind of real action. But it does send a message.

outside1234 5y ago

Not watching the Olympics, deleted TikTok off everyone’s phones in the house, buying more locally made things, etc.

hervature 5y ago
Serious question, does not watching the Olympics hurt them other than signaling? Currently debating getting Peacock for the month but have held out to boycott as well. To me, it seems it is only hurting NBC and, in a strange way, the US.
- dymk 5y ago
  It's a form of protest to NBC and our leadership. Protest is a form of signaling, but it's one that the US takes seriously when enough people do it.
- zarzavat 5y ago
  Appearances or “face” is very important in China, perhaps as important as money. Every Olympics a premier opportunity for China to gain face on the world stage, by showing off Chinese athletes. Hosting the Olympics is therefore an even greater exercise in national pride, and China takes it extremely seriously. So yes, if the olympics is a failure because people boycott it then it hurts their pride because they have built their pride around such events.

caconym_ 5y ago

What's your point?

hetspookjee 5y ago

Spending way too much time finding alternatives that are not from china. But my oh my is it difficult not end up at a reseller or something. Often I find myself postponing it for a long time or in the end giving in and still buying something made in Chiba or partially. Also I’m hosting a small Olympics boycot party which is not very popular admittedly but it’s something. And Corona doesn’t help with that either.

jeswin 5y ago

1. I always check the country of origin before buying. I still buy China-made products when there's absolutely no other option, but whenever there's an alternative made anywhere outside China (whether higher priced, or even slightly inferior), I buy that instead. 2. Going to fund the development (since I can't do this myself) of a browser plugin to help people find non-China goods on Amazon easily. Just two features: Remove Chinese origin items from the search list, and display a warning on the item page when it's made in China. 3. Support Tibetans by buying things they make, visiting their businesses etc.

dnautics 5y ago
I do 1 as well. I've held off on buying a waffle iron because I don't need one and I can't find one that isn't made in china.
vinnybad 5y ago
I’d use the plugin.
mkbkn 5y ago
I do 1 very actively and as loudly as possible. I also do 3 whenever I get a chance, which is rare btw.
eljimmy 5y ago
Happy to read so many others here are doing #1. The country of origin for where a product was made is a great way to stop funneling your money to China. I've managed to spread this habit to a few of friends of mine but for the most part most don't seem to care. Often the reason being it's just cheaper to buy Chinese made. Human greed knows no bounds. Most people seem happy to put their head in the sand. I feel with time this type of movement can grow stronger though.
hetspookjee 5y ago
Where can I follow you on the plug-in? I’d like it too. And also a bit of a down side of current browser finger printing is that ability to infer the different kinds of plugins, in which this is quite a political signal

mc32 5y ago

It will take major corporate interests to take a stand like they did with South Africa with regards to apartheit. Massive economic impact can induce a corrective effect --unless you have a despot altogether like North Korea where noting will make a difference and only national trade policies can suppress coöperation. But, as we have witnessed so far, sometimes the money spigot is too good and you just make motions and pretensions --like LeBron James and Tim Cook.

sofixa 5y ago
The problem is that many companies rely heavily on China, either for supply, manufacturing or as a big lucrative market. South Africa wasn't nearly as important on any of those, so it was a much easier stance to make.
- mc32 5y ago
  I guess. These people always talk a good game. Tim Cook talks about justice here and justice there and the environment here and there... but where the rubber hits the road, he gets quiet --as do myriad others. I mention him because he poses as the iconic industry titan who says all the right things but it's just a thin veneer. Same with mr James. He talks justice US-side but come China, it's crickets.

TeeMassive 5y ago

1) I'm looking for non-Chinese, thus less cheap and more durable, alternatives whenever I can. 2) I regularly speak out on CGTN (their global propaganda network that post on websites regular Chinese citizens don't have a right to access) on their social media pages using my personal account with my real identity. This has probably cut me off from the country and jobs that do lots of business there. 3) I talk politics with family and friends. I never bring up politics at the table, except for this subject. I know I probably lost a handful of "friends" because of that. Never mind. People often ask/brag about what they would have done during WW2 to fight Nazi Germany and the Japanese Empire, I always point out what they are doing right now with China.

Jensson 5y ago

Individuals boycotting a country never had a great effect. Boycotts needs organization, for example governments can do it. Did you vote to boycott China? That is what matters for these things.

zhoujianfu 5y ago

I had a list (of 37) recently public tech companies I was going to buy some of a couple of days ago. I realized 3 of them were Chinese and dropped them from the list.

csdvrx 5y ago

None whatsoever. Because 1) I do not hold people collectively responsible, and 2) even if acting in good will and on voluntary basis, this would mean I believe foreigners should be able to dictate to other countries how they should work within their own borders. If there is indeed a violation of international treaties, escapees should be able to sue China in Brussels or NYC at the International Criminal Court. This is the proper way to deal with such issues: by shining a bright light and not engaging in "feel good" actions that will be at best futile, at worst increase anti-Chinese racism.

einszwei 5y ago
I understand what you are saying but would you change your mind about those "feel good" actions if say there is possibility that gadgets/cosmetics you use could have come from forced labour? There have been publications in credible news sources for long and even the US government has acknowledged prevalence of Uyghur Forced Labor.

Aunche 5y ago

I struggle to understand the end goal of this sort of attitude. The sacrifice you would need to make to even remotely pressure China is orders of magnitude more than you could imagine. The last time a sanction actually worked was with Iran's nuclear program, which completely crushed their economy. That also required the most sophisticated cyberattack in history. Sanctions alone did nothing to stop Russia's annexation of Crimea, and that also caused Europe to suffer from expensive gas prices. China has a much large economy, so any equivalent sanction would be the largest drag on the economy since WWII. Also, keep in mind that any sanction use for humanitarian leverage is one less that we can use for geopolitical or economic leverage. The likelyhood that politicians would vote for meaningful sanctions to help Xinjiang is about as likely as voting for offering China $1 trillion to shut down their reeducation camps.

VictorPath 5y ago

newacc9 5y ago

I vote for the political party that thinks China is a problem, instead of the other one, but it does nothing. China is more powerful than the West at this point, so we're not calling the shots. They produce the equivalent of the French Navy each year, and have for over a decade, plus they dominate industry, AI, etc, etc.