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The Banning of “Maus.” It’s Dumber Than You Think

31 points by Anon84 5y ago

quantified 5y ago
- renewedrebecca 5y ago
  Why?
  - slater 5y ago
    because it's a particularly gnarly paragraph in the bible, according to my 2-second google search
    - FooBarBizBazz 5y ago
      It says something about our society that we're more willing to find obscenity in the Song of Solomon than we are in Genesis 34.
      - slater 5y ago
        yes indeed, that a bronze-age book elicits anything other than pure ridicule is quite a... testament.
        FooBarBizBazz 5y ago
        I don't think people should reject it out of hand like that. It's one of the most influential texts of our society. It's worth knowing what actually is in it. Read the Quran too.
        quantified 5y ago
        Especially its rich supply of carefully phrased (KJV) sex and violence.
  - quantified 5y ago
    The bible is good for children to learn!
aahortwwy 5y ago
> depicts nudity (that is, illustrated animal nudity). I'm pretty sure they're referring to the depiction of the author's mother's nude corpse in a bathtub full of bloody water.
- HarryHirsch 5y ago
  Died in Auschwitz 20 years later. That happened. And since there's no way to sugarcoat that fact they ban the book instead.
  - finite_jest 5y ago
    We don't have a moral duty to make eighth-graders see depictions of everything that is heinous and ugly about the world.
    - errcorrectcode 5y ago
      Let's just pretend the Holocaust didn't happen. Moonbeams, rainbows, and sunshine all the time. Oh and definitely don't teach the Armenian Genocide, WW1, WW2, The Trail of Tears, or slavery because that would hurt someones feewlings. Get real or be ignorant.
    - otterley 5y ago
      How do you recommend we teach the Holocaust and the history of other evils to children instead, in a way that is equally or more effective?
      - legerdemain 5y ago
        Why "teach" the Holocaust? Why make young children carry the burden of a monstrous time in history? How does it make them better at English?
        aahortwwy 5y ago
        Can't reply to your deeper comments on this thread, but in the meeting minutes they decide they'll replace Maus with a different text about the Holocaust. So it's not really a debate about whether 8th graders should be taught the Holocaust in ELA, but how they should be taught.
echlebek 5y ago
I read the article and it was exactly as dumb as I would have thought. I pity the children growing up there.
ALittleLight 5y ago
This author just doesn't seem honest. Reading a few paragraphs in I see that he incorrectly describes the decision as a ban when, in reality, the school board decided to use a different book, if they could find it. Not every change in curriculum is a ban. Shortly after the author describes one of the complaints against the book as that it includes animal nudity. In fact the book includes drawn human nudity from the images I've seen. If white supremacists and Nazis had taken over a school board and were trying to conceal the Holocaust - that would be a story. If a school board thinks they can find more age appropriate material for their students... Well, that's their role. Is there some law that everyone needs to read Maus? In general, the fact that a random Tennessee school is adjusting their Holocaust curriculum based on what they think is age appropriate is a non-story. People like this author dishonestly sensationalize it to get clicks.
- FooBarBizBazz 5y ago
  Could you post a link to what exactly you found objectionable? I did an image search; I see crude drawings of animals. My rule of thumb here is "go to the primary sources".
  - ALittleLight 5y ago
    I don't recall saying I found anything objectionable about Maus. I've never read it. I said the author was dishonestly portraying objections. https://twitter.com/theVoltist/status/1487550149509406722?t=5TOQpuEaHOFT7GB0_Jin1A https://twitter.com/theVoltist/status/1487550149509406722?t=... That's an image showing human nudity for example.
    - FooBarBizBazz 5y ago
      Thank you. Having seen it -- if this is the "worst" example that can be found -- then I think the parents are either overreacting, or, more likely, are looking for a pretext. There were examples of books that the conservatives banned because they really were sexually explicit. This doesn't seem to be one of them.
zackees 5y ago
[dead]
bumbledraven 5y ago
Dishonest article. It claims, falsely, that "a Tennessee school board voted to ban the book." But the book was not banned; it was simply removed from the curriculum. The board even suggested adding it back if they couldn't find an alternative they preferred. According to the minutes of the 2022-01-10 McMinn County Board of Education meeting [1]: > Jonathan Pierce: My motion was to remove this particular book from our curriculum and that if possible, find a book that will supplement the one there. > ... > Rob Shamblin: At that point if it’s been removed, it could be added back if there is no better alternative, I assume? I don’t know what it’s going to take to find an alternative. The motion passed unanimously (10-0). [1] https://core-docs.s3.amazonaws.com/documents/asset/uploaded_file/1818370/Called_Meeting_Minutes_1-10-22.pdf https://core-docs.s3.amazonaws.com/documents/asset/uploaded_...
- tandymodel100 5y ago
- legerdemain 5y ago
  Prohibiting books from being added to a curriculum is what banning is. I have seen this disingenuous copy-paste objection show up in every thread on this topic on HN, and it hurts to see people swallow it. Especially since it then conveniently leads down the slippery slope into aggrieved complaining about scumbag reporters and scumbag press and how newspapers were newspapers and news was news back in the good ole days in the nineteen umpties.
  - bumbledraven 5y ago
    Stating that Maus was "banned" without qualification is misleading. It gives the impression that the book was removed from the library and that teachers are prohibited from using it as a resource. The author had plenty of space to clarify this in the article and chose not to. What happened is that the board approved a motion to remove Maus from the list of prescribed materials for the 8th grade unit on the Holocaust. Lord of the Rings isn't on that list either. Neither book has been "banned". > Prohibiting books from being added to a curriculum is what banning is. The board didn't "prohibit" anything from being added to the curriculum. They are the ones responsible for the curriculum and they simply removed Maus from it. As noted in the meeting, they could add it back at any time if they choose.
errcorrectcode 5y ago
I watched a recent interview of Art Spiegelman just this week on Democracy Now!. IIRC, he flatly called the 10 voting board members "baffling" and "stupid" for banning it for a naked corpse of a cartoon mouse, hanged mice (like what happened), and saying "God damn" while being genocided! https://www.democracynow.org/2022/2/2/art_spiegelman_maus_a_survivors_tale https://www.democracynow.org/2022/2/2/art_spiegelman_maus_a_... PS: Book bans are the best form of promotion ever. Thank you stupid people! I hope it makes Art richer to promote sanity and education.

31 points by Anon84 5y ago

renewedrebecca 5y ago
Why?
- slater 5y ago
  because it's a particularly gnarly paragraph in the bible, according to my 2-second google search
  - FooBarBizBazz 5y ago
    It says something about our society that we're more willing to find obscenity in the Song of Solomon than we are in Genesis 34.
    - slater 5y ago
      yes indeed, that a bronze-age book elicits anything other than pure ridicule is quite a... testament.
      - FooBarBizBazz 5y ago
        I don't think people should reject it out of hand like that. It's one of the most influential texts of our society. It's worth knowing what actually is in it. Read the Quran too.
        quantified 5y ago
        Especially its rich supply of carefully phrased (KJV) sex and violence.
- quantified 5y ago
  The bible is good for children to learn!

> depicts nudity (that is, illustrated animal nudity). I'm pretty sure they're referring to the depiction of the author's mother's nude corpse in a bathtub full of bloody water.

HarryHirsch 5y ago
Died in Auschwitz 20 years later. That happened. And since there's no way to sugarcoat that fact they ban the book instead.
- finite_jest 5y ago
  We don't have a moral duty to make eighth-graders see depictions of everything that is heinous and ugly about the world.
  - errcorrectcode 5y ago
    Let's just pretend the Holocaust didn't happen. Moonbeams, rainbows, and sunshine all the time. Oh and definitely don't teach the Armenian Genocide, WW1, WW2, The Trail of Tears, or slavery because that would hurt someones feewlings. Get real or be ignorant.
  - otterley 5y ago
    How do you recommend we teach the Holocaust and the history of other evils to children instead, in a way that is equally or more effective?
    - legerdemain 5y ago
      Why "teach" the Holocaust? Why make young children carry the burden of a monstrous time in history? How does it make them better at English?
      - aahortwwy 5y ago
        Can't reply to your deeper comments on this thread, but in the meeting minutes they decide they'll replace Maus with a different text about the Holocaust. So it's not really a debate about whether 8th graders should be taught the Holocaust in ELA, but how they should be taught.

echlebek 5y ago

I read the article and it was exactly as dumb as I would have thought. I pity the children growing up there.

ALittleLight 5y ago

This author just doesn't seem honest. Reading a few paragraphs in I see that he incorrectly describes the decision as a ban when, in reality, the school board decided to use a different book, if they could find it. Not every change in curriculum is a ban. Shortly after the author describes one of the complaints against the book as that it includes animal nudity. In fact the book includes drawn human nudity from the images I've seen. If white supremacists and Nazis had taken over a school board and were trying to conceal the Holocaust - that would be a story. If a school board thinks they can find more age appropriate material for their students... Well, that's their role. Is there some law that everyone needs to read Maus? In general, the fact that a random Tennessee school is adjusting their Holocaust curriculum based on what they think is age appropriate is a non-story. People like this author dishonestly sensationalize it to get clicks.

FooBarBizBazz 5y ago
Could you post a link to what exactly you found objectionable? I did an image search; I see crude drawings of animals. My rule of thumb here is "go to the primary sources".
- ALittleLight 5y ago
  I don't recall saying I found anything objectionable about Maus. I've never read it. I said the author was dishonestly portraying objections. https://twitter.com/theVoltist/status/1487550149509406722?t=5TOQpuEaHOFT7GB0_Jin1A https://twitter.com/theVoltist/status/1487550149509406722?t=... That's an image showing human nudity for example.
  - FooBarBizBazz 5y ago
    Thank you. Having seen it -- if this is the "worst" example that can be found -- then I think the parents are either overreacting, or, more likely, are looking for a pretext. There were examples of books that the conservatives banned because they really were sexually explicit. This doesn't seem to be one of them.

zackees 5y ago

[dead]

bumbledraven 5y ago

Dishonest article. It claims, falsely, that "a Tennessee school board voted to ban the book." But the book was not banned; it was simply removed from the curriculum. The board even suggested adding it back if they couldn't find an alternative they preferred. According to the minutes of the 2022-01-10 McMinn County Board of Education meeting [1]: > Jonathan Pierce: My motion was to remove this particular book from our curriculum and that if possible, find a book that will supplement the one there. > ... > Rob Shamblin: At that point if it’s been removed, it could be added back if there is no better alternative, I assume? I don’t know what it’s going to take to find an alternative. The motion passed unanimously (10-0). [1] https://core-docs.s3.amazonaws.com/documents/asset/uploaded_file/1818370/Called_Meeting_Minutes_1-10-22.pdf https://core-docs.s3.amazonaws.com/documents/asset/uploaded_...

tandymodel100 5y ago
legerdemain 5y ago
Prohibiting books from being added to a curriculum is what banning is. I have seen this disingenuous copy-paste objection show up in every thread on this topic on HN, and it hurts to see people swallow it. Especially since it then conveniently leads down the slippery slope into aggrieved complaining about scumbag reporters and scumbag press and how newspapers were newspapers and news was news back in the good ole days in the nineteen umpties.
- bumbledraven 5y ago
  Stating that Maus was "banned" without qualification is misleading. It gives the impression that the book was removed from the library and that teachers are prohibited from using it as a resource. The author had plenty of space to clarify this in the article and chose not to. What happened is that the board approved a motion to remove Maus from the list of prescribed materials for the 8th grade unit on the Holocaust. Lord of the Rings isn't on that list either. Neither book has been "banned". > Prohibiting books from being added to a curriculum is what banning is. The board didn't "prohibit" anything from being added to the curriculum. They are the ones responsible for the curriculum and they simply removed Maus from it. As noted in the meeting, they could add it back at any time if they choose.

errcorrectcode 5y ago

I watched a recent interview of Art Spiegelman just this week on Democracy Now!. IIRC, he flatly called the 10 voting board members "baffling" and "stupid" for banning it for a naked corpse of a cartoon mouse, hanged mice (like what happened), and saying "God damn" while being genocided! https://www.democracynow.org/2022/2/2/art_spiegelman_maus_a_survivors_tale https://www.democracynow.org/2022/2/2/art_spiegelman_maus_a_... PS: Book bans are the best form of promotion ever. Thank you stupid people! I hope it makes Art richer to promote sanity and education.