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okay so this is an unlawful protest that has a detrimental impact on residents, the environment, and local business. Can someone explain to me why this is toler

okay so this is an unlawful protest that has a detrimental impact on residents, the environment, and local business. Can someone explain to me why this is tolerated and why these people are not simply being arrested? What it reminds me of is that 2014 standoff with the Bundy family on federal land in the US or farmers in France. Some groups can just do whatever they want apparently.

vkou 5y ago
guyzero 5y ago
ctoth 5y ago
I don't really want to get into the weeds here, but when you take a step back and squint a little bit it's hard to tell if this message was written by someone complaining about Canadian Truckers or about the 2020 Summer riots. Maybe let's lean a little more towards letting people express themselves and not bringing in the people with guns?
- manquer 5y ago
  There are peaceful ways to protest and expressing oneself, occupying a city this way and stealing food from a homeless shelter is not one of them that should be tolerated. Edit: See my comment below for sources on homeless shelter
  - kangaroozach 5y ago
    Stealing food? Can you cite that?
    - manquer 5y ago
      It was covered in the news well [1] [2] [3] [4]. Even Trudeau mentioned it in his comments. [1] https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/ottawa-homeless-shelter-staff-harassed-by-convoy-protesters-demanding-food-1.5760423 https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/ottawa-homeless-shelter-staff-hara... [2] https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/1/31/canada-trudeau-denounces-anti-vaccine-trucker-protests https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/1/31/canada-trudeau-deno... [3] https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/police-say-ottawa-truck-protest-dwindle-demonstrators-remain-stubborn-2022-01-31/ https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/police-say-ottawa-tru... [4] https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/31/world/canada/trudeau-truckers-anti-vax-protests.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/31/world/canada/trudeau-truc...
      - refurb 5y ago
        Trudeau also called the protest “anti-trans”. Since this protest is making him look bad, I’d take what he says with a grain of salt.
        manquer 5y ago
        It is just not him saying this happened, of course he would use it for his political advantage. I was just trying to show that the homeless shelter claim is beyond just random stranger on the internet ( he argubly is more credible than me however Low that maybe)
    - bryanlarsen 5y ago
      https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/convoy-protesters-make-for-a-really-tough-day-at-shepherds-of-good-hope-shelter-ceo https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/convoy-protesters-...
    - windsignaling 5y ago
      [dead]
- kevintb 5y ago
  For one thing, they didn’t block access to hospitals or harass health care workers.
  - ctoth 5y ago
    I mean I said I didn't want to get into the weeds here, just wanted to make a meta point. But if we must, then perhaps this is a bad criteria to use: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/la-hospital-protesters-block-police-er-shooting-compton-b434035.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/la-hospita...
    - projct 5y ago
      Snopes: > While the sheriff's department said protesters at one point blocked entrances and exits at the hospital, no videos or photos confirmed that was the case. [snip, most of the article about the shooting itself] > Rather, video footage showed a handful of deputies standing in a driveway (apparently an entrance to the hospital’s emergency room), while the small group of protesters paced up and down a sidewalk feet away from them. > At one point, deputies detained a journalist with LA’s NPR station, KPCC, who was reporting on the small protest, as well as a male protester who “refused to comply” with deputies’ demands to leave the area. > The sheriff’s department said the reporter, Josie Huang, ignored deputies’ repeated commands and did not present “proper” press credentials. But she said and videos of her arrest show she didn’t have time or space to react to deputies orders before they shoved her and forcefully took her into custody. In one video, she can be heard shouting “I’m a reporter… I’m with KPCC” as officers push her to the ground. They cited her with obstructing justice, though KPCC is urging authorities to drop the charge. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/blm-deputies-compton/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/blm-deputies-compton/
      - slg 5y ago
        Adding onto this to say that the LA Sheriff's Department has less than zero credibility when it comes to any matter concerning either race or protests against police action. They literally have violent and racist gangs operating in that department. There is a reason why "Google LASD Gangs" has become a meme in LA and LA-centric circles of the internet. It is a known problem and almost no one in power is working to fix it.
- lern_too_spel 5y ago
  Rioters should be and were arrested.
- Barrin92 5y ago
  I had the exact same take on the riots in 2020 and I don't condone rioting in general. Disrupting public order, destroying property, or just causing economic damage and thinking the law is just some suggestion seems to be an increasing and pretty bad trend. Expressing yourself is fine, disturbing public life because you don't get your will isn't. That's not how civilized societies resolve issues. This is now apparently a controversial take on multiple political sides.
  - dontreact 5y ago
    I agree with you, but I also see violence as an inevitable consequence of growing inequality. If we continue to let wealth inequality grow, more and more people will feel the game is unfair, and choose to play another game, even if the "rising tide that lifts all boats" is lifting their boat somewhat.
- nitwit005 5y ago
  It's not as if everyone who committed crimes while those 2020 protests were going on got away with it. They did arrest people. And generally arresting looters and rioters seems quite popular on both sides of the political spectrum. They often didn't have anything to do with the protests, and were just taking advantage of the police being busy.
  - chroem- 5y ago
    > And generally arresting looters and rioters seems quite popular on both sides of the political spectrum. I beg to differ. Any attempts to contain the mass violence were decried as "Trumpist fascism".
    - nitwit005 5y ago
      And you believe every single liberal agrees with that idea? You're just holding up a minority opinion and smearing the rest with it.
      - chroem- 5y ago
        That was the messsage being blasted at max volume by CNN, NYT, WaPo, and the rest. They were outraged when the capitol police responded to far left insurrectionists setting the national mall on fire. So yes, it is safe to say that was a mainstream viewpoint.
        nitwit005 5y ago
        Conservative news sources put out insane stuff all the time. Do all Conservatives believe all of it? It's not odd to publish editorials from activists when a bunch of protests are going on. That doesn't mean everyone is on board.
        chroem- 5y ago
        It was live coverage on major network television.
- blitzd 5y ago
  Easy to say when you're not the one being held hostage, unable to sleep for days on end.
- dkjaudyeqooe 5y ago
  > Maybe let's lean a little more towards letting people express themselves and not bringing in the people with guns? Sounds awesome until I come to your place banging pots and pans all night and blocking your driveway, for an extended period. As long as someone else is paying the price, standing on principle is easy.
jimbob45 5y ago
As an American that is (involuntarily) more concerned with the weather right now than Canadian politics… What makes it unlawful?
- jeromegv 5y ago
  Blocking a street for many days is typically considered illegal. I'm not saying that they should be prevented from protesting (and I strongly disagree with that protest), just answering the question as to why this might be illegal.
  - throwawaylinux 5y ago
    What law is it typically considered to violate? Does blocking the street for an hour break that law, or does it have to be "many days"?
    - favorited 5y ago
      Do you not think there are laws everywhere about blocking traffic? When you reach a destination in your car, do you just park in the middle of the street?
      - throwawaylinux 5y ago
        I'm asking you since you brought it up. And the question was not a hypothetical about someone parking in the middle of the street but specifics about what laws have specific people broken here.
      - vba616 5y ago
        I don't, but I think of it as normal, because commercial vehicles including delivery trucks do it all day every day in the area that I live in. They do it in the right lane of city streets that have two lanes each way, and they do it on streets where you have to cross over a double yellow to get around. Aside from that, I have lived in the approximate center of a moderate sized city (metro area of ~1 million) and noticed that there are occasional, authorized events that take over and prevent any and all traffic. Bicycle races for instance. Assuming one isn't vehemently against a protest in the first place, debating blocking traffic boils down to the technical requirements for permits and coordination with authorities. It's only a shocking breakdown of public order if people strongly oppose the underlying cause.
givemeethekeys 5y ago
> unlawful protest Please, give me examples of what you'd consider "lawful" protests of any significance.
- topspin 5y ago
  The ones that align with the correct narratives. Pointing out the double standard this creates is wrongthink. Dems da rules.
- lariati 5y ago
  Civil disobedience is perfectly fine IMO as long as you exactly follow all the rules, get the proper permits, etc.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > Civil disobedience is perfectly fine IMO as long as you exactly follow all the rules, get the proper permits, etc. That's not civil disobedience, at all. That's just civil obedience.
daenz 5y ago
>The whole point of protesting is to make ppl uncomfortable. Activists take that discomfort w/ the status quo & advocate for concrete policy changes. Popular support often starts small & grows. To folks who complain protest demands make others uncomfortable... that’s the point. https://twitter.com/aoc/status/1334184644707758080 https://twitter.com/aoc/status/1334184644707758080
- bawolff 5y ago
  I don't really find that compelling. Some level of discomfort is ok. Some is not. There is a line somewhere. Usually it involves the level of violence involved (terrorists after all are just making people very "uncomfortable" [what's more uncomfortable than being blown up] to achieve a political end.). To make the ad absurdum argument explicit: if your argument for why this protest is ok applies to 9/11 to the same extent that it applies to this protest, maybe its a bad argument. That doesn't mean that this protest is neccesarily not ok, just that this is a really bad argument to use to prove the point.
benmmurphy 5y ago
кто кого
screye 5y ago
> unlawful protest that has a detrimental impact on residents, the environment, and local business So every protest that has ever happened ? If anything, the associated violence and demands of the protest are pretty tame in comparison to what the BLM or Indian Farmers protests demanded. It is easy to dismiss the protestors because the reason for the protests sounds unimportant within our peer groups. However, a Democracy bestows equal rights onto people, and the validity of a protest is determined more so by its ability to be visible (the emotional fervor) than the merit of its points. > Some groups can just do whatever they want apparently Yep.
- bryanlarsen 5y ago
  > So every protest that has ever happened ? Ottawa, being the capital, gets two types of protests. The legal ones who get a permit have their route planned out in advance, and the police shut down the streets while the protest occurs. It's sort of like a parade. It's inconvenient and annoying, but no single street gets shut down for more than a couple of hours. And it's not just the agreeable protests that get permits. They pretty much have to give a permit to anybody who asks for one. For the illegal protests like the G20 occupation and when the indigenous people blocked a freeway exit, the police come in fast and hard. > If anything, the associated violence and demands of the protest are pretty tame in comparison to what the BLM or Indian Farmers protests demanded. Not in Canada. edit: there's a third type of protest, the small ones. You're welcome to stand on the sidewalk with a sign and yell as long as you don't interfere with anybody.
  - screye 5y ago
    > stand on the sidewalk with a sign > legal ones who get a permit have their route planned out in advance So the kind of protests that don't matter ? A protest, by definition, is meant to display discontent from the masses because conventional means have failed. If a protest does not hit where it hurts, it isn't an effective protest. If shouting loudly worked, then twitter outrage would have been sufficient for pressuring the Govt. into accepting their demands. A slight tangent, but this is exactly why I dislike 'permitted' or 'side walk' protests. You're walking down a pre-cleared street supporting an already popular movement with institutional support to show what exactly ? It reeks of the kind of slacktivism that has been memed to death over the last decade. The people are clearly expressing their disillusionment with the overreach of the Govt. in terms of the intrusion of privacy permitted to the Govt. by law. If you are disillusioned by the system, of course you'd just extra-legal means to display your discontent. Now, the Govt. ofc is allowed to react with force. If anything, I support removal of actively destructive protests with force. But, the current Canadian Govt. has supported far more egregious protests in the other nations (specifically the farmers protests and 2020 riots). So, I am enjoying a bit of schadenfreude seeing Trudeau get a piece of his own medicine.
cal5k 5y ago
> okay so this is an unlawful protest that has a detrimental impact on residents, the environment, and local business. The pearl-clutching about this protest has been something else.
- MatteoFrigo 5y ago
  One can listen to the organizers directly to find out who they are and what they want: https://rumble.com/vtp2lw-freedom-convoy-organizers-press-conference.html https://rumble.com/vtp2lw-freedom-convoy-organizers-press-co... You may agree or not agree, but as an added bonus you'll learn something about the economics of the trucking business.
  - halostatue 5y ago
    Please remember that whatever you think you’re learning about the economics of the trucking business, the people involved in this represent less than 10% of the truckers in Canada — and they also have no clue how little their protest matters as it is the _American_ mandate preventing the moronic holdouts from crossing the the border.
    - MatteoFrigo 5y ago
      They explain their position on the American side of the problem in the interview itself. I have no idea whether they are right or wrong, but they are not morons.
    - cal5k 5y ago
      You should seek to understand before parroting talking points like this. First, federal jurisdiction includes: mandating vaccine passports at the border, firing employees in federally-regulated industries that are unvaccinated, and preventing unvaccinated Canadians from being able to travel via plane or train domestically. There is also evidence to suggest that the Canadian government pressured the US government into implementing their own mandate on cross-border transportation to match ours. Second, over 30% of Canadians polled support these specific protests, and over 50% of Canadians want to see an end to all provincial and federal mandates. In the face of omicron there is zero science to support vaccine passports or other restrictions, and frankly there never was. Third, many vaccinated Canadians like myself are supportive of peaceful protests aimed at restoring basic charter rights even for those we might disagree with. I've always thought it disgusting that Canadians cheered on while unvaccinated Canadians lost their jobs or couldn't send their kids to university... this is exactly why minority rights are so important. Finally, it's common for protests to occur in Ottawa about all manner of issues because it's the nation's capital. Suggesting that none of the protestors understand who has jurisdiction over what is false.
toast0 5y ago
Ignoring the question of if it's unlawful or not; mass arrests are kind of difficult to do, and mass towing is kind of difficult to do (and I don't know if tow truck drivers are aligned with those in the convoy, but they might be?). Neither of these things are without consequences, either. As long as the protesters are mostly peaceful and respecting property (which I think seems to be the case, but I haven't spent a lot of time looking into this), encouraging the group to disperse without use of force would probably have better outcomes than escalating the conflict with arrests or towing.
koenigdavidmj 5y ago
So you arrest them all. Now they can’t drive away the <N> trucks in downtown Ottawa. You just exhausted all your leverage with them when you decided to throw the book at them. You call a tow truck driver. They say “I don’t have a class 3 tow truck, there’s no way I can move a semi.” You call a class 3 tow truck driver. They know they’re risking their reputation with the trucking industry, so they refuse. If they’re the trolling sort, they say they have COVID. Now what? There’s a lot of mess to clean up, and you don’t have the equipment you need to do it.
- MatteoFrigo 5y ago
  For a chuckle, here is a tow-truck operator commenting on this exact situation: https://rumble.com/vtwtvi-tow-truck-operator-refuses-to-assist-authorities-at-freedom-convoy.html https://rumble.com/vtwtvi-tow-truck-operator-refuses-to-assi...
- gknoy 5y ago
  At some point in that line of events, where do the bulldozers come out? Is the government obligated to preserve the condition of vehicles that are effectively a roadblock? (It probably is, but at the same time .... how far are you going to get in suing the government for siezing/dismantling/bulldozing your vehicle?)
  - koenigdavidmj 5y ago
    If there are five trucks there, most of this is moot. If there are a couple thousand, this gets interesting. - How many bulldozers do you have nearby? - How many bulldozers do you have nearby that are on the government's side here? - Where's your nearest hole or parking lot big enough to put a couple thousand trucks in, indefinitely? - Who's going to pay for that? Your truckers are in jail, so you threaten to...jail them if they don't pay? It's Canada, not Xinjiang. The worst they can do is jail you in a cushy prison for longer, with people who already counted the cost.
ls15 5y ago
> okay so this is an unlawful protest that has a detrimental impact on residents, the environment, and local business. Can someone explain to me why this is tolerated and why these people are not simply being arrested? I would say, just end those unlawful and unscientific vaccine mandates that have a detrimental impact on societies and businesses, so everyone can move on.
- halostatue 5y ago
  Vaccine mandates are lawful and constitutional, and well supported by science.
  - ls15 5y ago
    Not for SARS-CoV-2 and especially not for the Omicron variant. It is laughably absurd.
    - halostatue 5y ago
      Said like someone with an incorrect idée fixe instead of actually looking at (a) jurisdictions where they’ve worked (b) actual epidemiological and socio-psychological science. There are mistakes made by scientists during this pandemic (downplaying the efficacy of masks for months). Recommendations on vaccine mandates and vaccine passports aren’t one of them.
  - ls15 5y ago
    Btw., the SCOTUS has already blocked nationwide vaccine mandates in the US: https://edition.cnn.com/2022/01/13/politics/supreme-court-vaccine-mandate-covid-19/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2022/01/13/politics/supreme-court-va... > In freezing a lower court opinion that allowed the regulation to go into effect nationwide, the majority sent a clear message the Occupational Safety and Health Administration, charged with protecting workplace safety, overstepped its authority. In contrast, the justices said that a separate agency could issue a rule to protect the health and safety of Medicare and Medicaid patients. So they made an exception for healthcare workers in order to protect "the health and safety of Medicare and Medicaid patients". Patients are only protected by vaccination of healthcare workers if the vaccine is sterilizing, which is not the case (science).
sleepingadmin 5y ago
>okay so this is an unlawful protest that has a detrimental impact on residents, the environment, and local business. Could you elaborate on what makes the protest unlawful? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_assembly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_assembly If all it takes to invalidate this human right is a couple agent provocateur's causing some violence. Then protesting is essentially illegal for everyone. That's not how it works. Which is also why the ottawa police are backing off and saying the military has to do it. The military backed off saying nope.exe. >Can someone explain to me why this is tolerated and why these people are not simply being arrested? It's a peaceful protest that has every right to exist. >What it reminds me of is that 2014 standoff with the Bundy family on federal land in the US or farmers in France. Some groups can just do whatever they want apparently. https://notthebee.com/article/come-and-laugh-with-me-at-the-npc-wokies-who-are-saying-the-canadian-trucker-convoy-is-about-white-supremacy-/ https://notthebee.com/article/come-and-laugh-with-me-at-the-... Many great videos on there that make it abundantly clear that the media has quite falsely mislabeled this lawful protest. If I might make a suggestion, analyze your media source's bias. You seem to be listening to the yellow journalism.

vkou 5y ago

guyzero 5y ago

ctoth 5y ago

I don't really want to get into the weeds here, but when you take a step back and squint a little bit it's hard to tell if this message was written by someone complaining about Canadian Truckers or about the 2020 Summer riots. Maybe let's lean a little more towards letting people express themselves and not bringing in the people with guns?

manquer 5y ago
There are peaceful ways to protest and expressing oneself, occupying a city this way and stealing food from a homeless shelter is not one of them that should be tolerated. Edit: See my comment below for sources on homeless shelter
- kangaroozach 5y ago
  Stealing food? Can you cite that?
  - manquer 5y ago
    It was covered in the news well [1] [2] [3] [4]. Even Trudeau mentioned it in his comments. [1] https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/ottawa-homeless-shelter-staff-harassed-by-convoy-protesters-demanding-food-1.5760423 https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/ottawa-homeless-shelter-staff-hara... [2] https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/1/31/canada-trudeau-denounces-anti-vaccine-trucker-protests https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/1/31/canada-trudeau-deno... [3] https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/police-say-ottawa-truck-protest-dwindle-demonstrators-remain-stubborn-2022-01-31/ https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/police-say-ottawa-tru... [4] https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/31/world/canada/trudeau-truckers-anti-vax-protests.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/31/world/canada/trudeau-truc...
    - refurb 5y ago
      Trudeau also called the protest “anti-trans”. Since this protest is making him look bad, I’d take what he says with a grain of salt.
      - manquer 5y ago
        It is just not him saying this happened, of course he would use it for his political advantage. I was just trying to show that the homeless shelter claim is beyond just random stranger on the internet ( he argubly is more credible than me however Low that maybe)
  - bryanlarsen 5y ago
    https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/convoy-protesters-make-for-a-really-tough-day-at-shepherds-of-good-hope-shelter-ceo https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/convoy-protesters-...
  - windsignaling 5y ago
    [dead]
kevintb 5y ago
For one thing, they didn’t block access to hospitals or harass health care workers.
- ctoth 5y ago
  I mean I said I didn't want to get into the weeds here, just wanted to make a meta point. But if we must, then perhaps this is a bad criteria to use: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/la-hospital-protesters-block-police-er-shooting-compton-b434035.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/la-hospita...
  - projct 5y ago
    Snopes: > While the sheriff's department said protesters at one point blocked entrances and exits at the hospital, no videos or photos confirmed that was the case. [snip, most of the article about the shooting itself] > Rather, video footage showed a handful of deputies standing in a driveway (apparently an entrance to the hospital’s emergency room), while the small group of protesters paced up and down a sidewalk feet away from them. > At one point, deputies detained a journalist with LA’s NPR station, KPCC, who was reporting on the small protest, as well as a male protester who “refused to comply” with deputies’ demands to leave the area. > The sheriff’s department said the reporter, Josie Huang, ignored deputies’ repeated commands and did not present “proper” press credentials. But she said and videos of her arrest show she didn’t have time or space to react to deputies orders before they shoved her and forcefully took her into custody. In one video, she can be heard shouting “I’m a reporter… I’m with KPCC” as officers push her to the ground. They cited her with obstructing justice, though KPCC is urging authorities to drop the charge. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/blm-deputies-compton/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/blm-deputies-compton/
    - slg 5y ago
      Adding onto this to say that the LA Sheriff's Department has less than zero credibility when it comes to any matter concerning either race or protests against police action. They literally have violent and racist gangs operating in that department. There is a reason why "Google LASD Gangs" has become a meme in LA and LA-centric circles of the internet. It is a known problem and almost no one in power is working to fix it.
lern_too_spel 5y ago
Rioters should be and were arrested.
Barrin92 5y ago
I had the exact same take on the riots in 2020 and I don't condone rioting in general. Disrupting public order, destroying property, or just causing economic damage and thinking the law is just some suggestion seems to be an increasing and pretty bad trend. Expressing yourself is fine, disturbing public life because you don't get your will isn't. That's not how civilized societies resolve issues. This is now apparently a controversial take on multiple political sides.
- dontreact 5y ago
  I agree with you, but I also see violence as an inevitable consequence of growing inequality. If we continue to let wealth inequality grow, more and more people will feel the game is unfair, and choose to play another game, even if the "rising tide that lifts all boats" is lifting their boat somewhat.
nitwit005 5y ago
It's not as if everyone who committed crimes while those 2020 protests were going on got away with it. They did arrest people. And generally arresting looters and rioters seems quite popular on both sides of the political spectrum. They often didn't have anything to do with the protests, and were just taking advantage of the police being busy.
- chroem- 5y ago
  > And generally arresting looters and rioters seems quite popular on both sides of the political spectrum. I beg to differ. Any attempts to contain the mass violence were decried as "Trumpist fascism".
  - nitwit005 5y ago
    And you believe every single liberal agrees with that idea? You're just holding up a minority opinion and smearing the rest with it.
    - chroem- 5y ago
      That was the messsage being blasted at max volume by CNN, NYT, WaPo, and the rest. They were outraged when the capitol police responded to far left insurrectionists setting the national mall on fire. So yes, it is safe to say that was a mainstream viewpoint.
      - nitwit005 5y ago
        Conservative news sources put out insane stuff all the time. Do all Conservatives believe all of it? It's not odd to publish editorials from activists when a bunch of protests are going on. That doesn't mean everyone is on board.
        chroem- 5y ago
        It was live coverage on major network television.
blitzd 5y ago
Easy to say when you're not the one being held hostage, unable to sleep for days on end.
dkjaudyeqooe 5y ago
> Maybe let's lean a little more towards letting people express themselves and not bringing in the people with guns? Sounds awesome until I come to your place banging pots and pans all night and blocking your driveway, for an extended period. As long as someone else is paying the price, standing on principle is easy.

jimbob45 5y ago

As an American that is (involuntarily) more concerned with the weather right now than Canadian politics… What makes it unlawful?

jeromegv 5y ago
Blocking a street for many days is typically considered illegal. I'm not saying that they should be prevented from protesting (and I strongly disagree with that protest), just answering the question as to why this might be illegal.
- throwawaylinux 5y ago
  What law is it typically considered to violate? Does blocking the street for an hour break that law, or does it have to be "many days"?
  - favorited 5y ago
    Do you not think there are laws everywhere about blocking traffic? When you reach a destination in your car, do you just park in the middle of the street?
    - throwawaylinux 5y ago
      I'm asking you since you brought it up. And the question was not a hypothetical about someone parking in the middle of the street but specifics about what laws have specific people broken here.
    - vba616 5y ago
      I don't, but I think of it as normal, because commercial vehicles including delivery trucks do it all day every day in the area that I live in. They do it in the right lane of city streets that have two lanes each way, and they do it on streets where you have to cross over a double yellow to get around. Aside from that, I have lived in the approximate center of a moderate sized city (metro area of ~1 million) and noticed that there are occasional, authorized events that take over and prevent any and all traffic. Bicycle races for instance. Assuming one isn't vehemently against a protest in the first place, debating blocking traffic boils down to the technical requirements for permits and coordination with authorities. It's only a shocking breakdown of public order if people strongly oppose the underlying cause.

givemeethekeys 5y ago

> unlawful protest Please, give me examples of what you'd consider "lawful" protests of any significance.

topspin 5y ago
The ones that align with the correct narratives. Pointing out the double standard this creates is wrongthink. Dems da rules.
lariati 5y ago
Civil disobedience is perfectly fine IMO as long as you exactly follow all the rules, get the proper permits, etc.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > Civil disobedience is perfectly fine IMO as long as you exactly follow all the rules, get the proper permits, etc. That's not civil disobedience, at all. That's just civil obedience.

daenz 5y ago

>The whole point of protesting is to make ppl uncomfortable. Activists take that discomfort w/ the status quo & advocate for concrete policy changes. Popular support often starts small & grows. To folks who complain protest demands make others uncomfortable... that’s the point. https://twitter.com/aoc/status/1334184644707758080 https://twitter.com/aoc/status/1334184644707758080

bawolff 5y ago
I don't really find that compelling. Some level of discomfort is ok. Some is not. There is a line somewhere. Usually it involves the level of violence involved (terrorists after all are just making people very "uncomfortable" [what's more uncomfortable than being blown up] to achieve a political end.). To make the ad absurdum argument explicit: if your argument for why this protest is ok applies to 9/11 to the same extent that it applies to this protest, maybe its a bad argument. That doesn't mean that this protest is neccesarily not ok, just that this is a really bad argument to use to prove the point.

benmmurphy 5y ago

кто кого

screye 5y ago

> unlawful protest that has a detrimental impact on residents, the environment, and local business So every protest that has ever happened ? If anything, the associated violence and demands of the protest are pretty tame in comparison to what the BLM or Indian Farmers protests demanded. It is easy to dismiss the protestors because the reason for the protests sounds unimportant within our peer groups. However, a Democracy bestows equal rights onto people, and the validity of a protest is determined more so by its ability to be visible (the emotional fervor) than the merit of its points. > Some groups can just do whatever they want apparently Yep.

bryanlarsen 5y ago
> So every protest that has ever happened ? Ottawa, being the capital, gets two types of protests. The legal ones who get a permit have their route planned out in advance, and the police shut down the streets while the protest occurs. It's sort of like a parade. It's inconvenient and annoying, but no single street gets shut down for more than a couple of hours. And it's not just the agreeable protests that get permits. They pretty much have to give a permit to anybody who asks for one. For the illegal protests like the G20 occupation and when the indigenous people blocked a freeway exit, the police come in fast and hard. > If anything, the associated violence and demands of the protest are pretty tame in comparison to what the BLM or Indian Farmers protests demanded. Not in Canada. edit: there's a third type of protest, the small ones. You're welcome to stand on the sidewalk with a sign and yell as long as you don't interfere with anybody.
- screye 5y ago
  > stand on the sidewalk with a sign > legal ones who get a permit have their route planned out in advance So the kind of protests that don't matter ? A protest, by definition, is meant to display discontent from the masses because conventional means have failed. If a protest does not hit where it hurts, it isn't an effective protest. If shouting loudly worked, then twitter outrage would have been sufficient for pressuring the Govt. into accepting their demands. A slight tangent, but this is exactly why I dislike 'permitted' or 'side walk' protests. You're walking down a pre-cleared street supporting an already popular movement with institutional support to show what exactly ? It reeks of the kind of slacktivism that has been memed to death over the last decade. The people are clearly expressing their disillusionment with the overreach of the Govt. in terms of the intrusion of privacy permitted to the Govt. by law. If you are disillusioned by the system, of course you'd just extra-legal means to display your discontent. Now, the Govt. ofc is allowed to react with force. If anything, I support removal of actively destructive protests with force. But, the current Canadian Govt. has supported far more egregious protests in the other nations (specifically the farmers protests and 2020 riots). So, I am enjoying a bit of schadenfreude seeing Trudeau get a piece of his own medicine.

cal5k 5y ago

> okay so this is an unlawful protest that has a detrimental impact on residents, the environment, and local business. The pearl-clutching about this protest has been something else.

MatteoFrigo 5y ago
One can listen to the organizers directly to find out who they are and what they want: https://rumble.com/vtp2lw-freedom-convoy-organizers-press-conference.html https://rumble.com/vtp2lw-freedom-convoy-organizers-press-co... You may agree or not agree, but as an added bonus you'll learn something about the economics of the trucking business.
- halostatue 5y ago
  Please remember that whatever you think you’re learning about the economics of the trucking business, the people involved in this represent less than 10% of the truckers in Canada — and they also have no clue how little their protest matters as it is the _American_ mandate preventing the moronic holdouts from crossing the the border.
  - MatteoFrigo 5y ago
    They explain their position on the American side of the problem in the interview itself. I have no idea whether they are right or wrong, but they are not morons.
  - cal5k 5y ago
    You should seek to understand before parroting talking points like this. First, federal jurisdiction includes: mandating vaccine passports at the border, firing employees in federally-regulated industries that are unvaccinated, and preventing unvaccinated Canadians from being able to travel via plane or train domestically. There is also evidence to suggest that the Canadian government pressured the US government into implementing their own mandate on cross-border transportation to match ours. Second, over 30% of Canadians polled support these specific protests, and over 50% of Canadians want to see an end to all provincial and federal mandates. In the face of omicron there is zero science to support vaccine passports or other restrictions, and frankly there never was. Third, many vaccinated Canadians like myself are supportive of peaceful protests aimed at restoring basic charter rights even for those we might disagree with. I've always thought it disgusting that Canadians cheered on while unvaccinated Canadians lost their jobs or couldn't send their kids to university... this is exactly why minority rights are so important. Finally, it's common for protests to occur in Ottawa about all manner of issues because it's the nation's capital. Suggesting that none of the protestors understand who has jurisdiction over what is false.

toast0 5y ago

Ignoring the question of if it's unlawful or not; mass arrests are kind of difficult to do, and mass towing is kind of difficult to do (and I don't know if tow truck drivers are aligned with those in the convoy, but they might be?). Neither of these things are without consequences, either. As long as the protesters are mostly peaceful and respecting property (which I think seems to be the case, but I haven't spent a lot of time looking into this), encouraging the group to disperse without use of force would probably have better outcomes than escalating the conflict with arrests or towing.

koenigdavidmj 5y ago

So you arrest them all. Now they can’t drive away the <N> trucks in downtown Ottawa. You just exhausted all your leverage with them when you decided to throw the book at them. You call a tow truck driver. They say “I don’t have a class 3 tow truck, there’s no way I can move a semi.” You call a class 3 tow truck driver. They know they’re risking their reputation with the trucking industry, so they refuse. If they’re the trolling sort, they say they have COVID. Now what? There’s a lot of mess to clean up, and you don’t have the equipment you need to do it.

MatteoFrigo 5y ago
For a chuckle, here is a tow-truck operator commenting on this exact situation: https://rumble.com/vtwtvi-tow-truck-operator-refuses-to-assist-authorities-at-freedom-convoy.html https://rumble.com/vtwtvi-tow-truck-operator-refuses-to-assi...
gknoy 5y ago
At some point in that line of events, where do the bulldozers come out? Is the government obligated to preserve the condition of vehicles that are effectively a roadblock? (It probably is, but at the same time .... how far are you going to get in suing the government for siezing/dismantling/bulldozing your vehicle?)
- koenigdavidmj 5y ago
  If there are five trucks there, most of this is moot. If there are a couple thousand, this gets interesting. - How many bulldozers do you have nearby? - How many bulldozers do you have nearby that are on the government's side here? - Where's your nearest hole or parking lot big enough to put a couple thousand trucks in, indefinitely? - Who's going to pay for that? Your truckers are in jail, so you threaten to...jail them if they don't pay? It's Canada, not Xinjiang. The worst they can do is jail you in a cushy prison for longer, with people who already counted the cost.

ls15 5y ago

> okay so this is an unlawful protest that has a detrimental impact on residents, the environment, and local business. Can someone explain to me why this is tolerated and why these people are not simply being arrested? I would say, just end those unlawful and unscientific vaccine mandates that have a detrimental impact on societies and businesses, so everyone can move on.

halostatue 5y ago
Vaccine mandates are lawful and constitutional, and well supported by science.
- ls15 5y ago
  Not for SARS-CoV-2 and especially not for the Omicron variant. It is laughably absurd.
  - halostatue 5y ago
    Said like someone with an incorrect idée fixe instead of actually looking at (a) jurisdictions where they’ve worked (b) actual epidemiological and socio-psychological science. There are mistakes made by scientists during this pandemic (downplaying the efficacy of masks for months). Recommendations on vaccine mandates and vaccine passports aren’t one of them.
- ls15 5y ago
  Btw., the SCOTUS has already blocked nationwide vaccine mandates in the US: https://edition.cnn.com/2022/01/13/politics/supreme-court-vaccine-mandate-covid-19/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2022/01/13/politics/supreme-court-va... > In freezing a lower court opinion that allowed the regulation to go into effect nationwide, the majority sent a clear message the Occupational Safety and Health Administration, charged with protecting workplace safety, overstepped its authority. In contrast, the justices said that a separate agency could issue a rule to protect the health and safety of Medicare and Medicaid patients. So they made an exception for healthcare workers in order to protect "the health and safety of Medicare and Medicaid patients". Patients are only protected by vaccination of healthcare workers if the vaccine is sterilizing, which is not the case (science).

sleepingadmin 5y ago

>okay so this is an unlawful protest that has a detrimental impact on residents, the environment, and local business. Could you elaborate on what makes the protest unlawful? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_assembly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_assembly If all it takes to invalidate this human right is a couple agent provocateur's causing some violence. Then protesting is essentially illegal for everyone. That's not how it works. Which is also why the ottawa police are backing off and saying the military has to do it. The military backed off saying nope.exe. >Can someone explain to me why this is tolerated and why these people are not simply being arrested? It's a peaceful protest that has every right to exist. >What it reminds me of is that 2014 standoff with the Bundy family on federal land in the US or farmers in France. Some groups can just do whatever they want apparently. https://notthebee.com/article/come-and-laugh-with-me-at-the-npc-wokies-who-are-saying-the-canadian-trucker-convoy-is-about-white-supremacy-/ https://notthebee.com/article/come-and-laugh-with-me-at-the-... Many great videos on there that make it abundantly clear that the media has quite falsely mislabeled this lawful protest. If I might make a suggestion, analyze your media source's bias. You seem to be listening to the yellow journalism.