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Great news. Apple has turned the magic of software development from “how cool would this be?” to “how cool would Apple be with this?” That’s an environment of

Great news. Apple has turned the magic of software development from “how cool would this be?” to “how cool would Apple be with this?” That’s an environment of software suppression instead of free innovation, and Apple has felt little pressure to change. For anyone concerned about the security and privacy implications, don’t fall for the misconceptions perpetuated by Apple: non-App Store apps will still be sandboxed (so they can’t access other app or system data), and also scanned for malware by Apple - just like App Store apps!

zepto 5y ago
- nightski 5y ago
  That is rather reductionist. Users care about lots of things including the hardware itself, the camera, battery life, etc...
  - zepto 5y ago
    Sure, but that’s a matter of competition. Google and Samsung both have the resources to compete with Apple in those areas.
- bluSCALE4 5y ago
  Like all the shitty games with circular ads that which I also think should not exist? Can't wait for an actual curated store.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - zepto 5y ago
    How will this ‘curated store’ be profitable?
    - commoner 5y ago
      A curated app store doesn't need to be profitable to be useful for both users and developers. Example: F-Droid.
      - zepto 5y ago
        If you want F-Droid, Apple isn’t stopping you.
        fartcannon 5y ago
        Yeah they are.
        rvz 5y ago
        No they are not. One can write / use a progressive web app and have the app installed and running without the need of an App Store at all.
        sgjohnson 5y ago
        “Progressive Web App” is not an app. It’s a website, and it’s moronic to pretend otherwise.
        zepto 5y ago
        No they aren’t. If you want F-Droid, buy an android phone. Apple can’t stop you.
        commoner 5y ago
        Why should others go out of their way to satisfy your preferences before accomplishing what they want? If you want to get apps exclusively from the App Store, just do so. Apple will certainly keep that option available and easy to choose for you.
        fartcannon 5y ago
- keleftheriou 5y ago
  Android is in fact the dominant platform by number of users, and has cool stuff like cloud gaming apps that iOS does not. There are also other aspects of the iPhone that many people prefer over Android phones, e.g. hardware features and quality. The point about sandboxing is relevant because many people conflate sandboxing protections with the protections offered by App Review, and thus are afraid that non-App Store apps will be able to install viruses or brick their devices - which isn't the case. Lastly, the automated malware screening that’s part of the App Review process can be offered separately, thus the risk of "catching malware” from non-App Store apps will be the same as with App Store apps.
  - teknopaul 5y ago
    This is Hacker news, everyone reading this should be able to hack up something of personal use on their phone.
    - zepto 5y ago
      And they can. Nothing prevents that. If you think it does, you’ve been lied to.
      - tragictrash 5y ago
        Not true. Apple places a 7 day limit on developer mode side loaded apps when using a free account. Sorry to link to Reddit https://www.reddit.com/r/sideloaded/comments/8ht5uy/question_is_there_no_way_to_get_around_the_7day/ https://www.reddit.com/r/sideloaded/comments/8ht5uy/question...
        mullingitover 5y ago
        It'd be pretty trivial to throw together some automation that reinstalls your sideloaded apps nightly.
        tragictrash 5y ago
- segphault 5y ago
  > If there was a load of cool software that Apple was preventing from coming into existence, Android would be the dominant platform by now, because it would have all the cool stuff. A mobile application that can't be shipped on iOS has a much lower total addressable market, which potentially makes it so that it isn't a commercially-viable undertaking for the developer. When I was working in the mobile space, I saw more than one great idea that never advanced to a product because of this factor. There are also a lot of cases where a cross-platform mobile developer will kill an otherwise promising feature because they can't ship it on iOS and don't want to fragment their product by having different feature sets on each platform.
  - zepto 5y ago
    Perhaps you can name one such great idea.
    - Apocryphon 5y ago
      Comedy? https://techcrunch.com/2009/11/07/apple-has-no-sense-of-humor-luckily-google-does/ https://techcrunch.com/2009/11/07/apple-has-no-sense-of-humo...
      - zepto 5y ago
        Hardly greatness without which the innovation of an entire industry is being suppressed.
    - Mindwipe 5y ago
      Fetlife.
      - zepto 5y ago
        You can’t seriously be claiming that a FetLife app vs the fetlife website is major innovation.
    - toqy 5y ago
      Porn and Chrome probably
- teknopaul 5y ago
  Android is the dominant platform, and there is a lot of cool software missing. E.g. Any app that takes donations to charity or payments outside apple. Maybe not cool to you because you don't notice the cut apple takes. Apple users don't even realise there is competition in the keyboard market. Of the many cool apps missing are the ones that require root. Neither platform provide that so loads of apps are impossible. Android is the only platform if you want control of your own mobile device. Apple give two hoots about that because they have no competition in consumer markets. Lots of people have old iPhones they could be using for a load of funky projects or just plain simple software projects but apple don't let them. Some useful iPhone apps that don't exist. Mobile web server. Pos device WiFi bridge. Portable software demo device. Non itunes music player. Non apple payment device. ... An iPhone is just a computer that Apple tell you what you can do with.
  - threeseed 5y ago
    a) Nothing is stopping you from charging people from outside the app e.g. your own web site. It's how Netflix works. b) Multiple keyboards have existed on iOS for years. c) Spotify and Tidal are examples of non iTunes music players. d) Nothing is stopping you from running a web server, creating funky projects etc. You are just not allowed to disseminate to others through the App Store.
    - commoner 5y ago
      > a) Nothing is stopping you from charging people from outside the app e.g. your own web site. It's how Netflix works. Most here are already familiar with Apple's 15-30% fee (requiring developers to raise prices by 17.6-42.9% to break even) for most app categories, which siphons money from developers who are smaller than Apple to entrench Apple's duopoly position. Furthermore, even for free apps, Apple requires developers to pay the $99/year fee just to keep apps in the App Store. Without paying, the apps are removed. This already has a negative impact on the availability of free and open source apps on iOS, with an outsized effect on FOSS developers in areas with lower cost of living. For example, compare the huge selection of apps for Nextcloud features available to Android users via F-Droid (https://search.f-droid.org/?q=Nextcloud https://search.f-droid.org/?q=Nextcloud) to just Nextcloud (basic storage functions) and Nextcloud Talk on iOS. > d) Nothing is stopping you from running a web server, creating funky projects etc. You are just not allowed to disseminate to others through the App Store. That's a point in favor of the bill. Apple preventing entire categories of useful apps from entering iOS via the only accessible installation method for most users of average tech proficiency is evidence of consumer harm. Nobody is making you install or purchase anything from outside the App Store if you don't want to, even after sideloading becomes an option in iOS. Sideloading is allowed in Android, and most users still install and purchase apps from the Play Store in regions where the Play Store is pre-installed.
- anonymouse008 5y ago
  Thank you for sensibility. We all seem to forget that we as people have a choice. Either we go where other people go, or we chose to go somewhere else. It is not a precondition to have success in society to use an Apple device, so why does it matter that they chose to operate the way they do? A developer might want to target Apple specifically because AppStore provides a potentially high consumer lifetime value client for your offering; but guess what, if you were as valuable to your customer as Netflix, you could abide by Apple's rules completely and still be a successful company. The AppStore in app purchase doesn't matter -- Netflix iOS just says, 'good luck! figure out how to sign in!' Which gets to the other part of this, side loading != pay through AppStore. The 30% rake is the wind for this bill's sail, and it's not right. Just mandate alternate payment links like EU / whoever. Side loading will lead to more 0 clicks and NSO breakthroughs. The surface of attack is increasing.
- amelius 5y ago
  Android is a spyware shitshow and as such is in a different market. Phones-where-you-are-not-the-product is monopolized by Apple.
charcircuit 5y ago
If you want free innovation why not develop for PC? If Apple doesn't think free innovation is a good thing for their app store then it's Apple's loss for losing out on innovative software.
- AnthonyMouse 5y ago
  Many apps have network effects. You can put together a great messaging app but if Apple bans it or cripples it, it can't catch on. And that's just as true while you're small. You have six friends and three of them have iPhones, you can't get them all to switch to your own app. Meanwhile Apple's "loss" is of an app that they purposely didn't want, e.g. because it might have displaced iMessage by being a better SMS app (which they don't allow). They don't ban everything, they ban the things that are in their anti-competitive business advantage to ban.
- ClumsyPilot 5y ago
  Back in the real world Apple blocked UK governments app for letting EU citizen scan their passport and apply fir settled status, harming millions if people https://www.ft.com/content/3f7ab3fc-c4f4-11e9-a8e9-296ca66511c9 https://www.ft.com/content/3f7ab3fc-c4f4-11e9-a8e9-296ca6651...
starik36 5y ago
I agree with your sentiment, but how would apps be scanned by Apple if you are allowed to sideload via 3rd party stores? They don't exactly scan apps downloaded from Cydia today.
- snazz 5y ago
  An on-device service could upload executable hashes to Apple like on macOS, in addition to XProtect/MRT.
- cglong 5y ago
  Android can do automatic malware scanning of unknown APKs. When you try to install one, it checks a hash against Google's database, and if a match isn't found, you'll have the option to upload it to their servers.

zepto 5y ago

nightski 5y ago
That is rather reductionist. Users care about lots of things including the hardware itself, the camera, battery life, etc...
- zepto 5y ago
  Sure, but that’s a matter of competition. Google and Samsung both have the resources to compete with Apple in those areas.
bluSCALE4 5y ago
Like all the shitty games with circular ads that which I also think should not exist? Can't wait for an actual curated store.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- zepto 5y ago
  How will this ‘curated store’ be profitable?
  - commoner 5y ago
    A curated app store doesn't need to be profitable to be useful for both users and developers. Example: F-Droid.
    - zepto 5y ago
      If you want F-Droid, Apple isn’t stopping you.
      - fartcannon 5y ago
        Yeah they are.
        rvz 5y ago
        No they are not. One can write / use a progressive web app and have the app installed and running without the need of an App Store at all.
        sgjohnson 5y ago
        “Progressive Web App” is not an app. It’s a website, and it’s moronic to pretend otherwise.
        zepto 5y ago
        No they aren’t. If you want F-Droid, buy an android phone. Apple can’t stop you.
        commoner 5y ago
        Why should others go out of their way to satisfy your preferences before accomplishing what they want? If you want to get apps exclusively from the App Store, just do so. Apple will certainly keep that option available and easy to choose for you.
        fartcannon 5y ago
keleftheriou 5y ago
Android is in fact the dominant platform by number of users, and has cool stuff like cloud gaming apps that iOS does not. There are also other aspects of the iPhone that many people prefer over Android phones, e.g. hardware features and quality. The point about sandboxing is relevant because many people conflate sandboxing protections with the protections offered by App Review, and thus are afraid that non-App Store apps will be able to install viruses or brick their devices - which isn't the case. Lastly, the automated malware screening that’s part of the App Review process can be offered separately, thus the risk of "catching malware” from non-App Store apps will be the same as with App Store apps.
- teknopaul 5y ago
  This is Hacker news, everyone reading this should be able to hack up something of personal use on their phone.
  - zepto 5y ago
    And they can. Nothing prevents that. If you think it does, you’ve been lied to.
    - tragictrash 5y ago
      Not true. Apple places a 7 day limit on developer mode side loaded apps when using a free account. Sorry to link to Reddit https://www.reddit.com/r/sideloaded/comments/8ht5uy/question_is_there_no_way_to_get_around_the_7day/ https://www.reddit.com/r/sideloaded/comments/8ht5uy/question...
      - mullingitover 5y ago
        It'd be pretty trivial to throw together some automation that reinstalls your sideloaded apps nightly.
        tragictrash 5y ago
segphault 5y ago
> If there was a load of cool software that Apple was preventing from coming into existence, Android would be the dominant platform by now, because it would have all the cool stuff. A mobile application that can't be shipped on iOS has a much lower total addressable market, which potentially makes it so that it isn't a commercially-viable undertaking for the developer. When I was working in the mobile space, I saw more than one great idea that never advanced to a product because of this factor. There are also a lot of cases where a cross-platform mobile developer will kill an otherwise promising feature because they can't ship it on iOS and don't want to fragment their product by having different feature sets on each platform.
- zepto 5y ago
  Perhaps you can name one such great idea.
  - Apocryphon 5y ago
    Comedy? https://techcrunch.com/2009/11/07/apple-has-no-sense-of-humor-luckily-google-does/ https://techcrunch.com/2009/11/07/apple-has-no-sense-of-humo...
    - zepto 5y ago
      Hardly greatness without which the innovation of an entire industry is being suppressed.
  - Mindwipe 5y ago
    Fetlife.
    - zepto 5y ago
      You can’t seriously be claiming that a FetLife app vs the fetlife website is major innovation.
  - toqy 5y ago
    Porn and Chrome probably
teknopaul 5y ago
Android is the dominant platform, and there is a lot of cool software missing. E.g. Any app that takes donations to charity or payments outside apple. Maybe not cool to you because you don't notice the cut apple takes. Apple users don't even realise there is competition in the keyboard market. Of the many cool apps missing are the ones that require root. Neither platform provide that so loads of apps are impossible. Android is the only platform if you want control of your own mobile device. Apple give two hoots about that because they have no competition in consumer markets. Lots of people have old iPhones they could be using for a load of funky projects or just plain simple software projects but apple don't let them. Some useful iPhone apps that don't exist. Mobile web server. Pos device WiFi bridge. Portable software demo device. Non itunes music player. Non apple payment device. ... An iPhone is just a computer that Apple tell you what you can do with.
- threeseed 5y ago
  a) Nothing is stopping you from charging people from outside the app e.g. your own web site. It's how Netflix works. b) Multiple keyboards have existed on iOS for years. c) Spotify and Tidal are examples of non iTunes music players. d) Nothing is stopping you from running a web server, creating funky projects etc. You are just not allowed to disseminate to others through the App Store.
  - commoner 5y ago
    > a) Nothing is stopping you from charging people from outside the app e.g. your own web site. It's how Netflix works. Most here are already familiar with Apple's 15-30% fee (requiring developers to raise prices by 17.6-42.9% to break even) for most app categories, which siphons money from developers who are smaller than Apple to entrench Apple's duopoly position. Furthermore, even for free apps, Apple requires developers to pay the $99/year fee just to keep apps in the App Store. Without paying, the apps are removed. This already has a negative impact on the availability of free and open source apps on iOS, with an outsized effect on FOSS developers in areas with lower cost of living. For example, compare the huge selection of apps for Nextcloud features available to Android users via F-Droid (https://search.f-droid.org/?q=Nextcloud https://search.f-droid.org/?q=Nextcloud) to just Nextcloud (basic storage functions) and Nextcloud Talk on iOS. > d) Nothing is stopping you from running a web server, creating funky projects etc. You are just not allowed to disseminate to others through the App Store. That's a point in favor of the bill. Apple preventing entire categories of useful apps from entering iOS via the only accessible installation method for most users of average tech proficiency is evidence of consumer harm. Nobody is making you install or purchase anything from outside the App Store if you don't want to, even after sideloading becomes an option in iOS. Sideloading is allowed in Android, and most users still install and purchase apps from the Play Store in regions where the Play Store is pre-installed.
anonymouse008 5y ago
Thank you for sensibility. We all seem to forget that we as people have a choice. Either we go where other people go, or we chose to go somewhere else. It is not a precondition to have success in society to use an Apple device, so why does it matter that they chose to operate the way they do? A developer might want to target Apple specifically because AppStore provides a potentially high consumer lifetime value client for your offering; but guess what, if you were as valuable to your customer as Netflix, you could abide by Apple's rules completely and still be a successful company. The AppStore in app purchase doesn't matter -- Netflix iOS just says, 'good luck! figure out how to sign in!' Which gets to the other part of this, side loading != pay through AppStore. The 30% rake is the wind for this bill's sail, and it's not right. Just mandate alternate payment links like EU / whoever. Side loading will lead to more 0 clicks and NSO breakthroughs. The surface of attack is increasing.
amelius 5y ago
Android is a spyware shitshow and as such is in a different market. Phones-where-you-are-not-the-product is monopolized by Apple.

charcircuit 5y ago

If you want free innovation why not develop for PC? If Apple doesn't think free innovation is a good thing for their app store then it's Apple's loss for losing out on innovative software.

AnthonyMouse 5y ago
Many apps have network effects. You can put together a great messaging app but if Apple bans it or cripples it, it can't catch on. And that's just as true while you're small. You have six friends and three of them have iPhones, you can't get them all to switch to your own app. Meanwhile Apple's "loss" is of an app that they purposely didn't want, e.g. because it might have displaced iMessage by being a better SMS app (which they don't allow). They don't ban everything, they ban the things that are in their anti-competitive business advantage to ban.
ClumsyPilot 5y ago
Back in the real world Apple blocked UK governments app for letting EU citizen scan their passport and apply fir settled status, harming millions if people https://www.ft.com/content/3f7ab3fc-c4f4-11e9-a8e9-296ca66511c9 https://www.ft.com/content/3f7ab3fc-c4f4-11e9-a8e9-296ca6651...

starik36 5y ago

I agree with your sentiment, but how would apps be scanned by Apple if you are allowed to sideload via 3rd party stores? They don't exactly scan apps downloaded from Cydia today.

snazz 5y ago
An on-device service could upload executable hashes to Apple like on macOS, in addition to XProtect/MRT.
cglong 5y ago
Android can do automatic malware scanning of unknown APKs. When you try to install one, it checks a hash against Google's database, and if a match isn't found, you'll have the option to upload it to their servers.