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I'm from the US and I was shocked they needed 400A plus propane. We draw more current then you guys because our voltage is lower but still, 200A services are pr

I'm from the US and I was shocked they needed 400A plus propane. We draw more current then you guys because our voltage is lower but still, 200A services are pretty standard for large rural homes.

Scoundreller 5y ago
My thought is that power can go out for days at a time after a big storm, so propane is mostly a backup electricity/aux heat source. Maybe they have a heat pump setup which switches to propane when it gets really cold. Wood is there, but somebody needs to feed it. And people inevitably get old or lazy about it and depend more and more on the convenient heat sources available.
danans 5y ago
> I was shocked they needed 400A Seconded. I recently completed an all electric high performance remodel, and with 200A service, I can power a heat pump, heat pump water heater, all electric kitchen and laundry, and an EV charger, with Amps to spare. This is in the mild Bay Area, and my heat pump draws about 6A (15A breaker). The largest loads are EV and cooktop/stove. A 3000sqft custom house built to high performance standards (airtight and well insulated) can be space heated in a cold climate with a heat pump that draws no more than 24A (40A breaker) using a heat pump. At that load a modern heat pump will make 40kBTU of heat. There are many examples of this across Canada. I just now read that they have an outdoor heated pool, though, so crazy as it sounds they are presumably using electricity to heat it. > plus propane. Apart from backup water heating when the power goes out, their hot tub will waste huge amounts of energy, so propane might be operationally cheaper than electricity.
- wrycoder 5y ago
  I'm running a small hot tub in central New Hampshire. I figure it costs me $15 per month in the winter. Edit: Service in the US is generally 200A or 400A. I'd say 400A is overbuilt for what they have, but that doesn't mean they actually use much of that capacity. For example, I average 1000 kWh per month, which is about 1.39 kW 24/7, or 12 amps average on my 200A service. The 200A is to have headroom for peak demands, and we probably never get close to 200A. If I were to rewire my panel (it's full), I'd go for the 400A - it's just heavier copper in the three lines to the entrance panel. That would not increase my monthly power bill right now, but it would provide lots of excess capacity in case I want to switch to heat pumps and electric vehicles. Since we heat with wood and propane and don't use electricity for either and have mostly LED lighting and a gas stove, I do wonder where all the power is going, especially at night. Too many computers, I guess. Add analysis to my to-do list!
  - rhacker 5y ago
    It's funny how removed we are from reality. Even if $15/month might be cheaper than a propane bill, it would be far far more expensive against the planet to heat it with gas/coal burned at a factory 100 miles away, converted to electricity, then converted back to heat inside the spa water heater.
    - wrycoder 5y ago
      I think that an air/water heat pump on the tub, with say a COP of 8, would be less expensive to operate than propane or straight electric. But, I couldn't justify the capital expense. (Small hot tubs are electric.) I like my wood/propane mix for heating, because it's immune to power outages. At some point I'll get too old to cut/split/haul wood, though, and will have to figure something else out. I'm not sure why there's a push to eliminate gas cooking in favor of electricity. Perhaps some people are concerned with methane leaks in the natural gas distribution system.
      - ryukafalz 5y ago
        > I'm not sure why there's a push to eliminate gas cooking in favor of electricity. Perhaps some people are concerned with methane leaks in the natural gas distribution system. It's that, as well as the fact that having a gas stove means you have a gas hookup in the first place, so you're more likely to also use it for heating. That in turn leads to more emissions than other heating methods produce.
        wrycoder 5y ago
        Well, even with a catalyst, my wood stove puts out a lot of emissions. But, I don't live in an area with an inversion layer.
      - danans 5y ago
        > I'm not sure why there's a push to eliminate gas cooking in favor of electricity. It can make a lot of sense in urban areas. In addition to removing the methane leaks (with their high GWP), it reduces the need to install/maintain expensive natural gas distribution infrastructure, and also improves indoor air quality by eliminating NO2 and CO production within the house. If the power goes out, you just use a propane grill in the backyard, or a small butane stove.
- sokoloff 5y ago
  > they have an outdoor heated pool, though, so crazy as it sounds they are presumably using electricity to heat it. That’s an almost ideal case for an air-to-water heat pump though, the heat capacity and efficiency of which go up as the output water temperature goes down. Pool heating (and snow melting) are ideal use cases that can support a very low output water temperature and still get the job done (as compared to baseboard or cast-iron radiator space heating).
- jcelerier 5y ago
  reading this as a french, this is wild. AFAIK you can't even get more than 136A as an individual, you need to operate a company (if my calculation is correct - max. for individuals is 15kVa AFAIK). Huge majority is 6kVa / 230V => ~26A
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
StillBored 5y ago
And 100A isn't unusual, particularly for anything built more than 20 years ago.
- cbm-vic-20 5y ago
  My 100 year old house in the US has 100A service- though I'm thinking of upgrading to 200A service to help with Level 2 EV charging.
  - StillBored 5y ago
    It was probably upgraded from ~30A at some point in the past as a requirement of a lender. Presumably it has circuit breakers? Those weren't even a choice in a 100 year old house when it was built AFAIK. I've been curious how well these jobs are generally done, when I was a kid it was a big selling point to have circuit breakers instead of fuses. I've always been curious how through some of those upgrades were, did they replace all the wiring too, does everything have grounds, etc. Or did they just pull a few 240 lines for AC/range/etc? https://www.thespruce.com/service-panels-changed-in-the-1900s-1152732 https://www.thespruce.com/service-panels-changed-in-the-1900... Which says 100A didn't become common until the 1960's.
- DrPhish 5y ago
  True. For comparison, I have a 60s era 1000sqft house in northern Canada that had a 60A service into a 50A breaker panel up until last year. For insurance, safety and maintenance reasons[0] we upgraded to a 200A service, but for a small house and a 3-4 person family 50A is sufficient provided your hot water heater is natural gas. [0]: The incoming line was aerial and over the legal span length, so it had been attached to an insulator nailed to a tree halfway between the house and mast. Also the mast was deteriorating to the point that it needed to be replaced anyways and insurance was making noise about not allowing a new policy if it wasn't upgraded to at least 120A. We did a customer pole and went underground to the house. Much nicer aesthetics and I can now turn off a breaker on my side of the meter at the pole to do maintenance.
thatfrenchguy 5y ago
It's 400A at 240v, so, no, it's not more current than in the EU where most domestic loads are 230v.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
second--shift 5y ago
as a heads-up, most electrical mains in the USA are 240v; they are wired two circuits in series for most residential applications. But you'll find a 240v plug in most homes; it's the industrial heavy-duty looking plug.

I'm from the US and I was shocked they needed 400A plus propane. We draw more current then you guys because our voltage is lower but still, 200A services are pretty standard for large rural homes.

Scoundreller 5y ago

My thought is that power can go out for days at a time after a big storm, so propane is mostly a backup electricity/aux heat source. Maybe they have a heat pump setup which switches to propane when it gets really cold. Wood is there, but somebody needs to feed it. And people inevitably get old or lazy about it and depend more and more on the convenient heat sources available.

danans 5y ago

> I was shocked they needed 400A Seconded. I recently completed an all electric high performance remodel, and with 200A service, I can power a heat pump, heat pump water heater, all electric kitchen and laundry, and an EV charger, with Amps to spare. This is in the mild Bay Area, and my heat pump draws about 6A (15A breaker). The largest loads are EV and cooktop/stove. A 3000sqft custom house built to high performance standards (airtight and well insulated) can be space heated in a cold climate with a heat pump that draws no more than 24A (40A breaker) using a heat pump. At that load a modern heat pump will make 40kBTU of heat. There are many examples of this across Canada. I just now read that they have an outdoor heated pool, though, so crazy as it sounds they are presumably using electricity to heat it. > plus propane. Apart from backup water heating when the power goes out, their hot tub will waste huge amounts of energy, so propane might be operationally cheaper than electricity.

wrycoder 5y ago
I'm running a small hot tub in central New Hampshire. I figure it costs me $15 per month in the winter. Edit: Service in the US is generally 200A or 400A. I'd say 400A is overbuilt for what they have, but that doesn't mean they actually use much of that capacity. For example, I average 1000 kWh per month, which is about 1.39 kW 24/7, or 12 amps average on my 200A service. The 200A is to have headroom for peak demands, and we probably never get close to 200A. If I were to rewire my panel (it's full), I'd go for the 400A - it's just heavier copper in the three lines to the entrance panel. That would not increase my monthly power bill right now, but it would provide lots of excess capacity in case I want to switch to heat pumps and electric vehicles. Since we heat with wood and propane and don't use electricity for either and have mostly LED lighting and a gas stove, I do wonder where all the power is going, especially at night. Too many computers, I guess. Add analysis to my to-do list!
- rhacker 5y ago
  It's funny how removed we are from reality. Even if $15/month might be cheaper than a propane bill, it would be far far more expensive against the planet to heat it with gas/coal burned at a factory 100 miles away, converted to electricity, then converted back to heat inside the spa water heater.
  - wrycoder 5y ago
    I think that an air/water heat pump on the tub, with say a COP of 8, would be less expensive to operate than propane or straight electric. But, I couldn't justify the capital expense. (Small hot tubs are electric.) I like my wood/propane mix for heating, because it's immune to power outages. At some point I'll get too old to cut/split/haul wood, though, and will have to figure something else out. I'm not sure why there's a push to eliminate gas cooking in favor of electricity. Perhaps some people are concerned with methane leaks in the natural gas distribution system.
    - ryukafalz 5y ago
      > I'm not sure why there's a push to eliminate gas cooking in favor of electricity. Perhaps some people are concerned with methane leaks in the natural gas distribution system. It's that, as well as the fact that having a gas stove means you have a gas hookup in the first place, so you're more likely to also use it for heating. That in turn leads to more emissions than other heating methods produce.
      - wrycoder 5y ago
        Well, even with a catalyst, my wood stove puts out a lot of emissions. But, I don't live in an area with an inversion layer.
    - danans 5y ago
      > I'm not sure why there's a push to eliminate gas cooking in favor of electricity. It can make a lot of sense in urban areas. In addition to removing the methane leaks (with their high GWP), it reduces the need to install/maintain expensive natural gas distribution infrastructure, and also improves indoor air quality by eliminating NO2 and CO production within the house. If the power goes out, you just use a propane grill in the backyard, or a small butane stove.
sokoloff 5y ago
> they have an outdoor heated pool, though, so crazy as it sounds they are presumably using electricity to heat it. That’s an almost ideal case for an air-to-water heat pump though, the heat capacity and efficiency of which go up as the output water temperature goes down. Pool heating (and snow melting) are ideal use cases that can support a very low output water temperature and still get the job done (as compared to baseboard or cast-iron radiator space heating).
jcelerier 5y ago
reading this as a french, this is wild. AFAIK you can't even get more than 136A as an individual, you need to operate a company (if my calculation is correct - max. for individuals is 15kVa AFAIK). Huge majority is 6kVa / 230V => ~26A
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

StillBored 5y ago

And 100A isn't unusual, particularly for anything built more than 20 years ago.

cbm-vic-20 5y ago
My 100 year old house in the US has 100A service- though I'm thinking of upgrading to 200A service to help with Level 2 EV charging.
- StillBored 5y ago
  It was probably upgraded from ~30A at some point in the past as a requirement of a lender. Presumably it has circuit breakers? Those weren't even a choice in a 100 year old house when it was built AFAIK. I've been curious how well these jobs are generally done, when I was a kid it was a big selling point to have circuit breakers instead of fuses. I've always been curious how through some of those upgrades were, did they replace all the wiring too, does everything have grounds, etc. Or did they just pull a few 240 lines for AC/range/etc? https://www.thespruce.com/service-panels-changed-in-the-1900s-1152732 https://www.thespruce.com/service-panels-changed-in-the-1900... Which says 100A didn't become common until the 1960's.
DrPhish 5y ago
True. For comparison, I have a 60s era 1000sqft house in northern Canada that had a 60A service into a 50A breaker panel up until last year. For insurance, safety and maintenance reasons[0] we upgraded to a 200A service, but for a small house and a 3-4 person family 50A is sufficient provided your hot water heater is natural gas. [0]: The incoming line was aerial and over the legal span length, so it had been attached to an insulator nailed to a tree halfway between the house and mast. Also the mast was deteriorating to the point that it needed to be replaced anyways and insurance was making noise about not allowing a new policy if it wasn't upgraded to at least 120A. We did a customer pole and went underground to the house. Much nicer aesthetics and I can now turn off a breaker on my side of the meter at the pole to do maintenance.

thatfrenchguy 5y ago

It's 400A at 240v, so, no, it's not more current than in the EU where most domestic loads are 230v.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

second--shift 5y ago

as a heads-up, most electrical mains in the USA are 240v; they are wired two circuits in series for most residential applications. But you'll find a 240v plug in most homes; it's the industrial heavy-duty looking plug.